I will update it with the new information we discussed design-wise and send it to you sliced up with the individual pieces you'll need when I get home from work. I have storyboards for you too to help also Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:51:58 To: <project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: [project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI Hey Eric. I was looking at the labeled pictures for the UI. I can't figure out where you want me to display the information the player is claiming to have. How did you want that to work? On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:27 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > i like the idea also although playing devil's advocate against my own idea, > there's something really simple and clean about the $5 dollars for 1000 gold > idea nick came up with... just because i would never do it doesn't mean the > market isn't out there... and having more money doesn't make you a better > player, if you suck you'll just have more money to lose to good players. > Maybe we charge $5 dollars for 1000 gold and a month pass into the VIP area, > that gives value to it. I think VIP passes should be purchasable w/ in game > money too though... > > i dunno, i guess really the question is how hard will it be to implement > from a tech viewpoint, and more importantly does the potential profit > justify the work. if the answer is yes, then we will find a way to make it > work from a design standpoint. :) > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: > >> I feel the same way as you. Honestly, I think paying real money for in >> game stuff is retarded. Plenty of people out there think it's a great idea. >> >> I really liked the idea of having a VIP lounge where players who paid can >> go in and they would get a higher payout. >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:13 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >> >>> well lemme put on my 3 hats >>> >>> gamer hat: i hate spending real life cash for in game stuff >>> designer hat: i dont like the competitive advantage real life cash gives >>> to people with those resources over regular gamers >>> capitalist hat: if people are stupid enough to give us $ for pirate dice >>> gold, then let them *exhales cuban cigar smoke* >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>> >>>> but i guess even if people find out how to get in game money for free, >>>> we'd still get some people buyin it so shrug >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>> >>>>> i would only consider it if i could use that money for anything in >>>>> game, but even then it wouldnt be too hard for someone to make a program >>>>> that just edited ram and gave themselves a ton of money (then they publish >>>>> that program publicly and lots of people have it) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:33 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> i mean we can definitely do it but would you pay real life money for >>>>>> in game money that you can earn yourself if you can't spend that in-game >>>>>> money on anything? that is a legit question, im not shooting the idea >>>>>> down, >>>>>> im just saying is it worth our effort of setting it up? what will be >>>>>> their >>>>>> motivation to buy? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Those are all nice features, but it seems pretty out of scope. I >>>>>>> just meant a minor suggestion of like, "$5 buys you 100 gold", etc. >>>>>>> Sorry >>>>>>> for the tangent. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:24 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> oh yeah, cashing in game money for real life money is a terrible >>>>>>>> idea, i was just saying thats the only reason I personally would pay >>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>> life money for in game money. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> man, its rough. obviously my gamer instincts are telling me, "hell >>>>>>>> no" to a pay real $ for in game money system. its my opinion that >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> ebay ruined gemstone, it ruined it for me as a player because i had a >>>>>>>> hard >>>>>>>> time spending gold i earned in game on in game stuff because i could >>>>>>>> only >>>>>>>> think of it translated to real life money - like lets say i kill >>>>>>>> monsters >>>>>>>> for a month and earn 4 million gold, i think hey i'd like a new sword >>>>>>>> or i >>>>>>>> could sell it on ebay for 60 bucks... and conversely, the people who >>>>>>>> had $$$ >>>>>>>> to spend bought all the money and all the nice items and ruined the >>>>>>>> economy. >>>>>>>> Basically it creates an in-balance between the straight up gamers who >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> to earn everything the right way, and rich assholes who will fork over >>>>>>>> $$$ >>>>>>>> to cheat the system. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am slightly happier with maybe making the multiplayer part of the >>>>>>>> game a tiered subscription system if we want to monetize it that way, >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> different levels cost different monthly fees and unlock new areas or >>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>> VIP sections of existing games where maybe the odds are easier or >>>>>>>> maybe if >>>>>>>> you're a paid gamer, you get a daily allowance of gold or something... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool >>>>>>>>> with charging real life cash for pirate dice money" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What if it was for "in game money", not specifically pirate dice >>>>>>>>> money? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And im sure you are on the same page as me but i think being able >>>>>>>>> to cash out in game money for real life money is a bad move. it >>>>>>>>> would take >>>>>>>>> sooo much work to get the security right and like get some kind of >>>>>>>>> payment >>>>>>>>> gateway working etc. Like you said it would make us a gambling >>>>>>>>> website, and >>>>>>>>> doin that takes a lot of work for something really outside of the >>>>>>>>> scope of >>>>>>>>> what we are trying to do. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Nick Klotz < >>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> farmville makes over $20,000 a month on people spending REAL cash >>>>>>>>>> for ingame money to buy tractors and such. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx >>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am >>>>>>>>>>>> cool with charging real life cash for pirate dice money. we could >>>>>>>>>>>> even make >>>>>>>>>>>> an exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be >>>>>>>>>>>> honest and >>>>>>>>>>>> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless >>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously >>>>>>>>>>>> would make >>>>>>>>>>>> us a gambling site :P >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the >>>>>>>>>>>> demand for gold in the game is really high and there's a lot you >>>>>>>>>>>> can do with >>>>>>>>>>>> that money that gives it value... i just dont know if that >>>>>>>>>>>> principle >>>>>>>>>>>> translates here quite yet, but possibly in the future! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and >>>>>>>>>>>>> paying for stuff that is available to everyone. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The >>>>>>>>>>>>> player should be able to have an alternative to earning money. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Not everyone >>>>>>>>>>>>> will want to play that mini game. In addition to making more >>>>>>>>>>>>> minigame >>>>>>>>>>>>> variety I think another way to earn money could be allowing the >>>>>>>>>>>>> players to >>>>>>>>>>>>> spend real money and save time. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch >>>>>>>>>>>>> or an additional character. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where you have to pay for content. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This may be different though. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> money this way yeah (: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz < >>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VIP anyone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flag players who buy money and only allow them to play with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other players >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who buy money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game will have better flow and be more of its own entity. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games. I think it opens of your audience to a wider range of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult players. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of people out there who would rather spend a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few bucks in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real life than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why allow both? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After enough time has passed on the game servers there will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be enough money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in circulation that it would not matter as much to game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some stuff about the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> :P >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play, so you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rounds?) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante (depending on how many rounds of betting there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause i am dumb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now lol) and if you don't you can't play? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular poker where it creates a side pot for people to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue betting and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person that is out of money would just win the main >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pot if he wins, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the second place person would get the side pot... but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that seems clumsy to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me. I would actually say we should just make it that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if someone doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have enough money to buy in for an entire game, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are disqualified and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicked from the table until they have enough. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the pirate dice area, you start off with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of gold and there's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 games of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium and then a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high stakes game. We could also have a "loan shark" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NPC who offers to loan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small amounts of money at high interest, and what i was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking was if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the area that can earn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cash that is free. I was thinking it could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like, you could work as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could make a mini bar >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> catch all the rats and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one is ever stuck and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money? IE when you are "all in"? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games are the most simple. Easy to play, hard to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> master. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model we would. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player, first round starts with 3 visible dice rolled >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 1 hidden dice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to stay in the game and call you would need to state >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you have a greater >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than or equal hand than the person who called before >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you right? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably best to go without for now. I could see it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially working in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2v2 version of pirate dice. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making the rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how to proceed so i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured i'd better talk it out first. I think you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the right idea but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a way i was thinking it could work: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls 1 hidden dice. (I think these amounts may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change when we play test >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for balance, but this is an ok starting point) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coin and and claims a combination to open the match >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either put 1 coin in and claim to top the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's combination, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2nd hidden dice is rolled, also the amount to stay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game up a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-decided increment. For example it could go up 1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round, or double >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round, etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 hidden dice have been rolled, if 3 have been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolled and its gone around to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else, everyone reveals their dice and the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highest combination wins. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rule to call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it was infrequent while >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we were playing the actual game. I think pirate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice might not need calling >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bluff at all, really when playing through just be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante'ing up and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on you're essentially "calling their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff" - just like regular >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reveal, after that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the proof is in the pudding. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would work anyhow. One way I was thinking was at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any time, a person can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff" on the previous person's claim instead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of claiming for their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they still have to pay the ante-in fee to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call a bluff. Once bluff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called, the accused reveals his dice, if he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lying, he forfeits and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars fee equivalent to the round's ante. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise, if the accused >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling the truth, he forfeits and the accuser >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has to pay a tattler's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante. my problem with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any of these is it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables a really easy kingmaker for people working >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together, but i am >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely all ears if anyone has an idea how to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make it work. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round. be affected by the blinds? Do you still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want a large and small >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mods and see what you think. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raising? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public and then the next 3 dice to come out one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn at a time? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did when we played it, i wish i could. If you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't bet, you can't raise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out. Is it that if you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to stay in you have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last person said so that to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have something higher than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out? Just tryin to wrap my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> head around it hehe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have progressively higher combinations of dice, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically what you said is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have or claim to have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before you, so essentially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with every turn. Raising >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misty and i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we played, we had a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system where if you won you got 2 points, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folded you got 0, if you got >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called for bluffing you lost 3 points, etc. i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't really remember >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i dont think we bet... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, its simple and easy while still keeping a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high risk/reward for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who continue playing - I am, of course, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open to other ideas though! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just working through playing pirate dice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my head to make the UI and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i realized that betting, etc. overly complicates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you're essentially >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a better hand on your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgotten that aspect of the game (the public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did when we played it, i wish i could. If you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't bet, you can't raise >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out. Is it that if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you want to stay in you have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last person said so that to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have something higher than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out? Just tryin to wrap my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> head around it hehe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list the players in the room (since there may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more players than are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting down). >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to work out some kinks in the game flow >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before i finalize things... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game from a multiplayer perspective and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a problem w/ the standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call format of poker in relevance to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this game. Basically the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes from divulging the type and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination of dice you have, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell everyone what you have (or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're pretending to have) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn, betting doesn't work in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional way. Basically I was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that rather than escalating the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bets manually as players, I think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be an "ante" to stay in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whenever it is your turn, so you have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice of either folding out of the game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or putting in a pre-defined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling everyone what you have (or are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretending to have) that either >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or matches the previous player, or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling the bluff of the previous >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player. I realize this is a slight >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deviation from the current design but I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it will function much more cleanly and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it makes more sense when put >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a game perspective. Basically we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have multiple stakes, so there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high stakes game where its 10 gold >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a round, or a low stakes game >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1 gold per round, etc. or perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the amount of ante to stay in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round escalated (i.e. it's low in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first couple of rounds but when >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get into the 5th or 6th round the stakes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get higher making it a riskier >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and thus more fun!) to continue or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff or call a bluff. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this was a bit of omission when Alan and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were trying to remember how we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played the game, there was some publicly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed amount of dice, either >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice that are shared by all players or maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each players first 3 dice are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed, this will give something for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other players to try to judge >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is bluffing or not and to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to calculate the odds. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally conceived of as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination of the liar's dice game on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the carribean and texas hold'em, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so I am pretty sure having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice was part of what made the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game fun and playable. Sorry it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hard to explain via e-mail without having >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice in front of me but what i >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean is this: we could either have 3 dice >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are shared amongst all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players (like the flop in texas hold'em) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> once everyone ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a 2 are rolled. Now the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players roll their first 2 hidden dice. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Player one sees he rolled a 3 and a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 in his personal hidden dice, and claims he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has a pair of 3's. The rest of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players can see all he needed to do was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll one 3 himself in order to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get that pair of 3's so he is probably not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing. The game escalates >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where every players first 3 dice are visible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to all players, and all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice rolls are hidden. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games is figuring out the odds, trying to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get lucky on dice rolls and trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to guess if other people are bluffing. Part >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of all three of those things is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people hints to try to guess at what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the other person REALLY has. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having the visible dice is that tantalizing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hint. :) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >