[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:56:35 -0400

farmville makes over $20,000 a month on people spending REAL cash for ingame
money to buy tractors and such.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool with
>> charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could even make an
>> exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be honest and
>> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless they
>> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously would make
>> us a gambling site :P
>> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the demand for
>> gold in the game is really high and there's a lot you can do with that money
>> that gives it value... i just dont know if that principle translates here
>> quite yet, but possibly in the future!
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying for
>>> stuff that is available to everyone.
>>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The player
>>> should be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not everyone will
>>> want to play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame variety I
>>> think another way to earn money could be allowing the players to spend real
>>> money and save time.
>>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or an
>>> additional character.
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you
>>>> have to pay for content.
>>>> This may be different though.
>>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this
>>>> way yeah (:
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> VIP anyone?
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag
>>>>>> players who buy money and only allow them to play with other players who 
>>>>>> buy
>>>>>> money
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will
>>>>>>> have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I
>>>>>>> think it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. 
>>>>>>> There are
>>>>>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real 
>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>>>>>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>>>>>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz 
>>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe 
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff
>>>>>>>>> about the game
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so
>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb 
>>>>>>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> person that is out of money would just win the main pot if he 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins, and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> second place person would get the side pot... but that seems 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> clumsy to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would actually say we should just make it that if someone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and kicked
>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's 3 games
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> loan small
>>>>>>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you run
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can earn you
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> work as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rats and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IE when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game and call you would need to state that you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greater than or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured i'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i was thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put 1 coin in and claim to top the previous person's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination, or fold
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, or double 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around to everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables a really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely all ears if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round. be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't raise someones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as high or higher than one the last person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said so that to bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out you have to basically say you have something 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher than them to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out some kinks in the game flow before i finalize 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have, and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have) every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically I was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit of omission when Alan and I were trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember how we played the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game, there was some publicly displayed amount of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice, either dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry it is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now the players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a 3 and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing.  Part of all three of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has.  Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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