[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:44:57 -0400

I'm a fan of generating money. :T

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff about the
> game
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>
>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you have
>>>> to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>
>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante (depending
>>>> on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb right now lol) and
>>>> if you don't you can't play?
>>>>
>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>
>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular poker
>>>>> where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and the person
>>>>> that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, and the 
>>>>> second
>>>>> place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy to me.  I 
>>>>> would
>>>>> actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't have enough
>>>>> money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and kicked from
>>>>> the table until they have enough.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the pirate
>>>>> dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3 games of
>>>>> pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a high 
>>>>> stakes
>>>>> game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to loan small
>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if you run
>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can earn 
>>>>> you
>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work as a
>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a mini bar
>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the rats and
>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever stuck and
>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE when
>>>>>> you are "all in"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are the
>>>>>>> most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first round
>>>>>>> starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in the
>>>>>>> game and call you would need to state that you have a greater than or 
>>>>>>> equal
>>>>>>> hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 version of
>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest of
>>>>>>>> the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured i'd 
>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>> talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a way i 
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden dice.
>>>>>>>>  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for balance, but 
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and
>>>>>>>> claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1 coin
>>>>>>>> in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or fold out
>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden dice is
>>>>>>>> rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided 
>>>>>>>> increment.  For
>>>>>>>> example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, etc.
>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden dice
>>>>>>>> have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around to everyone
>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination wins.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call
>>>>>>>> bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we were
>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need calling a 
>>>>>>>> bluff
>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and continuing 
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular poker a
>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that the 
>>>>>>>> proof
>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work anyhow.
>>>>>>>>  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can call "bluff" on 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> previous person's claim instead of claiming for their round, they 
>>>>>>>> still have
>>>>>>>> to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff is called, the 
>>>>>>>> accused
>>>>>>>> reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and pays a liars
>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused was 
>>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee 
>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables a 
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely all 
>>>>>>>> ears if
>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round. be
>>>>>>>>> affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small blinds?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see what
>>>>>>>>>>> you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then the
>>>>>>>>>>> next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high or higher than one the last person said so that to bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have progressively
>>>>>>>>>>>> higher combinations of dice, basically what you said is exactly 
>>>>>>>>>>>> right - if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you want to stay in you have to have or claim to have a better 
>>>>>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>>>>>> of dice than the person before you,  so essentially you're betting 
>>>>>>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to bluff them out with every turn.  Raising and making bets 
>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>> redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a point 
>>>>>>>>>>>> system
>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you got 
>>>>>>>>>>>> called for
>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its simple
>>>>>>>>>>>> and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for players who 
>>>>>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>>>>>>> playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas though!  I was just 
>>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>>> through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI and i 
>>>>>>>>>>>> realized that
>>>>>>>>>>>> betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially 
>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyways whenever you claim you have a better hand on your turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high or higher than one the last person said so that to bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the room (since there may be more players than are sitting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kinks in the game flow before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the standard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to have) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically I was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I think 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you have the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a pre-defined 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current design but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a riskier 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how we played 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge whether 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared amongst 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone ante's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now the players 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 3 and a 4 in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  The rest of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see all he needed to do was roll one 3 himself in order to get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The game escalates from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all subsequence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice rolls are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is figuring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls and trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess if other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people are bluffing.  Part of all three of those things is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hints to try to guess at what the other person REALLY has.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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