[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:27:22 -0400

i like the idea also although playing devil's advocate against my own idea,
there's something really simple and clean about the $5 dollars for 1000 gold
idea nick came up with... just because i would never do it doesn't mean the
market isn't out there... and having more money doesn't make you a better
player, if you suck you'll just have more money to lose to good players.
Maybe we charge $5 dollars for 1000 gold and a month pass into the VIP area,
that gives value to it.  I think VIP passes should be purchasable w/ in game
money too though...

i dunno, i guess really the question is how hard will it be to implement
from a tech viewpoint, and more importantly does the potential profit
justify the work.  if the answer is yes, then we will find a way to make it
work from a design standpoint.  :)

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 5:17 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I feel the same way as you. Honestly, I think paying real money for in game
> stuff is retarded. Plenty of people out there think it's a great idea.
>
> I really liked the idea of having a VIP lounge where players who paid can
> go in and they would get a higher payout.
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:13 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> well lemme put on my 3 hats
>>
>> gamer hat: i hate spending real life cash for in game stuff
>> designer hat: i dont like the competitive advantage real life cash gives
>> to people with those resources over regular gamers
>> capitalist hat: if people are stupid enough to give us $ for pirate dice
>> gold, then let them *exhales cuban cigar smoke*
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> but i guess even if people find out how to get in game money for free,
>>> we'd still get some people buyin it so shrug
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> i would only consider it if i could use that money for anything in
>>>> game,  but even then it wouldnt be too hard for someone to make a program
>>>> that just edited ram and gave themselves a ton of money (then they publish
>>>> that program publicly and lots of people have it)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:33 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> i mean we can definitely do it but would you pay real life money for in
>>>>> game money that you can earn yourself if you can't spend that in-game 
>>>>> money
>>>>> on anything?  that is a legit question, im not shooting the idea down, im
>>>>> just saying is it worth our effort of setting it up? what will be their
>>>>> motivation to buy?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Those are all nice features, but it seems pretty out of scope.  I just
>>>>>> meant a minor suggestion of like, "$5 buys you 100 gold", etc.  Sorry for
>>>>>> the tangent.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:24 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> oh yeah, cashing in game money for real life money is a terrible
>>>>>>> idea, i was just saying thats the only reason I personally would pay 
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>> life money for in game money.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> man, its rough.  obviously my gamer instincts are telling me, "hell
>>>>>>> no" to a pay real $ for in game money system.  its my opinion that 
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> ebay ruined gemstone, it ruined it for me as a player because i had a 
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> time spending gold i earned in game on in game stuff because i could 
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> think of it translated to real life money - like lets say i kill 
>>>>>>> monsters
>>>>>>> for a month and earn 4 million gold, i think hey i'd like a new sword 
>>>>>>> or i
>>>>>>> could sell it on ebay for 60 bucks... and conversely, the people who 
>>>>>>> had $$$
>>>>>>> to spend bought all the money and all the nice items and ruined the 
>>>>>>> economy.
>>>>>>> Basically it creates an in-balance between the straight up gamers who 
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> to earn everything the right way, and rich assholes who will fork over 
>>>>>>> $$$
>>>>>>> to cheat the system.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am slightly happier with maybe making the multiplayer part of the
>>>>>>> game a tiered subscription system if we want to monetize it that way, 
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> different levels cost different monthly fees and unlock new areas or 
>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>> VIP sections of existing games where maybe the odds are easier or maybe 
>>>>>>> if
>>>>>>> you're a paid gamer, you get a daily allowance of gold or something...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool
>>>>>>>> with charging real life cash for pirate dice money"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What if it was for "in game money", not specifically pirate dice
>>>>>>>> money?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And im sure you are on the same page as me but i think being able to
>>>>>>>> cash out in game money for real life money is a bad move.  it would 
>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>> sooo much work to get the security right and like get some kind of 
>>>>>>>> payment
>>>>>>>> gateway working etc.  Like you said it would make us a gambling 
>>>>>>>> website, and
>>>>>>>> doin that takes a lot of work for something really outside of the 
>>>>>>>> scope of
>>>>>>>> what we are trying to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> farmville makes over $20,000 a month on people spending REAL cash
>>>>>>>>> for ingame money to buy tractors and such.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am
>>>>>>>>>>> cool with charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could 
>>>>>>>>>>> even make
>>>>>>>>>>> an exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be 
>>>>>>>>>>> honest and
>>>>>>>>>>> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless 
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously 
>>>>>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>>>>>> us a gambling site :P
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the
>>>>>>>>>>> demand for gold in the game is really high and there's a lot you 
>>>>>>>>>>> can do with
>>>>>>>>>>> that money that gives it value... i just dont know if that principle
>>>>>>>>>>> translates here quite yet, but possibly in the future!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and
>>>>>>>>>>>> paying for stuff that is available to everyone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The
>>>>>>>>>>>> player should be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not 
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> will want to play that mini game. In addition to making more 
>>>>>>>>>>>> minigame
>>>>>>>>>>>> variety I think another way to earn money could be allowing the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> players to
>>>>>>>>>>>> spend real money and save time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch
>>>>>>>>>>>> or an additional character.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games
>>>>>>>>>>>>> where you have to pay for content.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This may be different though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> money this way yeah (:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VIP anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> flag players who buy money and only allow them to play with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who buy money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game will have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games. I think it opens of your audience to a wider range of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult players.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of people out there who would rather spend a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few bucks in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real life than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why allow both?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> After enough time has passed on the game servers there will be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough money
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in circulation that it would not matter as much to game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff about the game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play, so you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante (depending on how many rounds of betting there are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause i am dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular poker where it creates a side pot for people to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue betting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person that is out of money would just win the main 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pot if he wins, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the second place person would get the side pot... but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that seems clumsy to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me.  I would actually say we should just make it that if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disqualified and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicked from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the pirate dice area, you start off with an amount 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of gold and there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 games of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a medium and then a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who offers to loan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small amounts of money at high interest, and what i was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking was if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the area that can earn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you could work as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could make a mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> catch all the rats and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is ever stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money?  IE when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games are the most simple. Easy to play, hard to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> model we would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player, first round starts with 3 visible dice rolled 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to stay in the game and call you would need to state 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you have a greater
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than or equal hand than the person who called before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably best to go without for now. I could see it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially working in a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2v2 version of pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> making the rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how to proceed so i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured i'd better talk it out first.  I think you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the right idea but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a way i was thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls 1 hidden dice.  (I think these amounts may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change when we play test
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for balance, but this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coin and and claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either put 1 coin in and claim to top the previous 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's combination, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game up a pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or double each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 hidden dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and its gone around to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else, everyone reveals their dice and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highest combination wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rule to call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was infrequent while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we were playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might not need calling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bluff at all, really when playing through just be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante'ing up and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on you're essentially "calling their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff"  - just like regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the reveal, after that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the proof is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would work anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, a person can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff" on the previous person's claim instead 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of claiming for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they still have to pay the ante-in fee to call 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bluff.  Once bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called, the accused reveals his dice, if he was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lying, he forfeits and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars fee equivalent to the round's ante.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise, if the accused
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling the truth, he forfeits and the accuser 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has to pay a tattler's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  my problem with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any of these is it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables a really easy kingmaker for people working 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together, but i am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely all ears if anyone has an idea how to make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round. be affected by the blinds? Do you still 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want a large and small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mods and see what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public and then the next 3 dice to come out one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out.  Is it that if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to stay in you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have something higher than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically what you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have or claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you,  so essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with every turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> misty and i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we played, we had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system where if you won you got 2 points, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> folded you got 0, if you got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called for bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't really remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, its simple and easy while still keeping a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high risk/reward for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who continue playing - I am, of course, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> open to other ideas though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just working through playing pirate dice in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my head to make the UI and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i realized that betting, etc. overly complicates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgotten that aspect of the game (the public 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> did when we played it, i wish i could.  If you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out.  Is it that if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to stay in you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> last person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have something higher than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list the players in the room (since there may 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be more players than are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to work out some kinks in the game flow 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game from a multiplayer perspective and I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a problem w/ the standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call format of poker in relevance to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this game.  Basically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes from divulging the type and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination of dice you have, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell everyone what you have (or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you're pretending to have)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn, betting doesn't work in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional way.  Basically I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that rather than escalating the bets 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manually as players, I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be an "ante" to stay in whenever 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is your turn, so you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice of either folding out of the game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or putting in a pre-defined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling everyone what you have (or are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretending to have) that either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or matches the previous player, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling the bluff of the previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player.  I realize this is a slight deviation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the current design but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it will function much more cleanly and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it makes more sense when put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a game perspective.  Basically we can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have multiple stakes, so there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high stakes game where its 10 gold a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, or a low stakes game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1 gold per round, etc. or perhaps 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the amount of ante to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round escalated (i.e. it's low in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first couple of rounds but when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get into the 5th or 6th round the stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get higher making it a riskier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and thus more fun!) to continue or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a bit of omission when Alan and I were 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to remember how we played
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game, there was some publicly displayed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of dice, either dice that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are shared by all players or maybe each 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are displayed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this will give something for other players to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to judge whether the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person is bluffing or not and to try to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calculate the odds.  The game was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally conceived of as a combination of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the liar's dice game on pirates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the carribean and texas hold'em, so I am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice was part of what made the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game fun and playable.  Sorry it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hard to explain via e-mail without having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice in front of me but what i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean is this:   we could either have 3 dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are shared amongst all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 are rolled.  Now the players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sees he rolled a 3 and a 4 in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his personal hidden dice, and claims he has a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pair of 3's.  The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one 3 himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing.  The game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where every players first 3 dice are visible 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to all players, and all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games is figuring out the odds, trying to get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lucky on dice rolls and trying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to guess if other people are bluffing.  Part 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of all three of those things is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people hints to try to guess at what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the other person REALLY has.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Having the visible dice is that tantalizing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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