[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:47:19 -0700

Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you have
to pay for content.

This may be different though.

If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this way
yeah (:

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> VIP anyone?
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag players
>> who buy money and only allow them to play with other players who buy money
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will have
>>> better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I think
>>> it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. There are
>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real life
>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff about
>>>>> the game
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz 
>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you
>>>>>>>> have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb 
>>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular poker
>>>>>>>>> where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and the 
>>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>>> that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, and the 
>>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>>> place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy to me.  
>>>>>>>>> I would
>>>>>>>>> actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't have 
>>>>>>>>> enough
>>>>>>>>> money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and kicked 
>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>> the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3 
>>>>>>>>> games
>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a 
>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>> stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to 
>>>>>>>>> loan small
>>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if you 
>>>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can 
>>>>>>>>> earn you
>>>>>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work 
>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a 
>>>>>>>>> mini bar
>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the 
>>>>>>>>> rats and
>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever 
>>>>>>>>> stuck and
>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE
>>>>>>>>>> when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as well.
>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are the
>>>>>>>>>>> most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first round
>>>>>>>>>>> starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>> the game and call you would need to state that you have a greater 
>>>>>>>>>>> than or
>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>>>>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 
>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured 
>>>>>>>>>>>> i'd better
>>>>>>>>>>>> talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> way i was
>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>> dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for 
>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and
>>>>>>>>>>>> claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> coin in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>> is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided 
>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  For example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>> have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call
>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we 
>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can call 
>>>>>>>>>>>> "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their 
>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they
>>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff is 
>>>>>>>>>>>> called,
>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and 
>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars
>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused was 
>>>>>>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee 
>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely 
>>>>>>>>>>>> all ears if
>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round. be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically what you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a better 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kinks in the game flow before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to have) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a pre-defined 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current design 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to stay 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 himself 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing.  Part of all three of those 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has.  Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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