[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:38:37 -0400

People will always be willing to spend real money to give them an
'advantage' over their peers.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:37 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> and don't be sorry nick, these are good conversations to have because i'd
> like to monetize the game too and it takes careful planning, etc. to make it
> work and be viable short term and long term, posting ideas like yours are a
> catalyst to start these talks :)
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:33 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> i mean we can definitely do it but would you pay real life money for in
>> game money that you can earn yourself if you can't spend that in-game money
>> on anything?  that is a legit question, im not shooting the idea down, im
>> just saying is it worth our effort of setting it up? what will be their
>> motivation to buy?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Those are all nice features, but it seems pretty out of scope.  I just
>>> meant a minor suggestion of like, "$5 buys you 100 gold", etc.  Sorry for
>>> the tangent.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:24 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> oh yeah, cashing in game money for real life money is a terrible idea, i
>>>> was just saying thats the only reason I personally would pay real life 
>>>> money
>>>> for in game money.
>>>>
>>>> man, its rough.  obviously my gamer instincts are telling me, "hell no"
>>>> to a pay real $ for in game money system.  its my opinion that people ebay
>>>> ruined gemstone, it ruined it for me as a player because i had a hard time
>>>> spending gold i earned in game on in game stuff because i could only think
>>>> of it translated to real life money - like lets say i kill monsters for a
>>>> month and earn 4 million gold, i think hey i'd like a new sword or i could
>>>> sell it on ebay for 60 bucks... and conversely, the people who had $$$ to
>>>> spend bought all the money and all the nice items and ruined the economy.
>>>> Basically it creates an in-balance between the straight up gamers who want
>>>> to earn everything the right way, and rich assholes who will fork over $$$
>>>> to cheat the system.
>>>>
>>>> I am slightly happier with maybe making the multiplayer part of the game
>>>> a tiered subscription system if we want to monetize it that way, where
>>>> different levels cost different monthly fees and unlock new areas or like
>>>> VIP sections of existing games where maybe the odds are easier or maybe if
>>>> you're a paid gamer, you get a daily allowance of gold or something...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool
>>>>> with charging real life cash for pirate dice money"
>>>>>
>>>>> What if it was for "in game money", not specifically pirate dice money?
>>>>>
>>>>> And im sure you are on the same page as me but i think being able to
>>>>> cash out in game money for real life money is a bad move.  it would take
>>>>> sooo much work to get the security right and like get some kind of payment
>>>>> gateway working etc.  Like you said it would make us a gambling website, 
>>>>> and
>>>>> doin that takes a lot of work for something really outside of the scope of
>>>>> what we are trying to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> farmville makes over $20,000 a month on people spending REAL cash for
>>>>>> ingame money to buy tractors and such.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool
>>>>>>>> with charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could even 
>>>>>>>> make an
>>>>>>>> exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be honest and
>>>>>>>> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless they
>>>>>>>> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously 
>>>>>>>> would make
>>>>>>>> us a gambling site :P
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the demand
>>>>>>>> for gold in the game is really high and there's a lot you can do with 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> money that gives it value... i just dont know if that principle 
>>>>>>>> translates
>>>>>>>> here quite yet, but possibly in the future!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying
>>>>>>>>> for stuff that is available to everyone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The
>>>>>>>>> player should be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not 
>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>> will want to play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame
>>>>>>>>> variety I think another way to earn money could be allowing the 
>>>>>>>>> players to
>>>>>>>>> spend real money and save time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or
>>>>>>>>> an additional character.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where
>>>>>>>>>> you have to pay for content.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This may be different though.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money
>>>>>>>>>> this way yeah (:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> VIP anyone?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag
>>>>>>>>>>>> players who buy money and only allow them to play with other 
>>>>>>>>>>>> players who buy
>>>>>>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game
>>>>>>>>>>>>> will have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> games. I think it opens of your audience to a wider range of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult players.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bucks in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> real life than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow both?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> After enough time has passed on the game servers there will be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough money
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stuff about the game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> play, so you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante (depending on how many rounds of betting there are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause i am dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right now lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular poker where it creates a side pot for people to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue betting and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person that is out of money would just win the main pot 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if he wins, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the second place person would get the side pot... but that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seems clumsy to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me.  I would actually say we should just make it that if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disqualified and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicked from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enter the pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold and there's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 games of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> medium and then a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who offers to loan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small amounts of money at high interest, and what i was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking was if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> area that can earn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you could work as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make a mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all the rats and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money?  IE when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> solid as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games are the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay in the game and call you would need to state that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have a greater
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than or equal hand than the person who called before you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> best to go without for now. I could see it potentially 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working in a 2v2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed so i figured
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'd better talk it out first.  I think you have the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right idea but here's a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way i was thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 hidden dice.  (I think these amounts may change when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we play test for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and and claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either put 1 coin in and claim to top the previous 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's combination, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game up a pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> double each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its gone around to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else, everyone reveals their dice and the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highest combination wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> infrequent while we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not need calling a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff at all, really when playing through just be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante'ing up and continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after that the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would work anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, a person can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff" on the previous person's claim instead of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claiming for their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff.  Once bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called, the accused reveals his dice, if he was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lying, he forfeits and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars fee equivalent to the round's ante.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Likewise, if the accused
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to pay a tattler's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  my problem with any 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of these is it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables a really easy kingmaker for people working 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> together, but i am
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definitely all ears if anyone has an idea how to make it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round. be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> large and small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and see what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out.  Is it that if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to stay in you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the last 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have something higher than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my head 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have or claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you,  so essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with every turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played, we had a point
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system where if you won you got 2 points, folded you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got 0, if you got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called for bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, its simple and easy while still keeping a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high risk/reward for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who continue playing - I am, of course, open 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to other ideas though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just working through playing pirate dice in my 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> head to make the UI and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i realized that betting, etc. overly complicates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgotten that aspect of the game (the public 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and bluff them out.  Is it that if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to stay in you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something as high or higher than one the last 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out you have to basically say you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have something higher than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my head 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> list the players in the room (since there may be 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more players than are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to work out some kinks in the game flow before i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from a multiplayer perspective and I have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem w/ the standard
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call format of poker in relevance to this 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game.  Basically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes from divulging the type and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination of dice you have, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell everyone what you have (or what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're pretending to have)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn, betting doesn't work in the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conventional way.  Basically I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that rather than escalating the bets 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manually as players, I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be an "ante" to stay in whenever it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is your turn, so you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice of either folding out of the game or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> putting in a pre-defined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling everyone what you have (or are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretending to have) that either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or matches the previous player, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling the bluff of the previous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player.  I realize this is a slight deviation 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the current design but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it will function much more cleanly and it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> makes more sense when put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a game perspective.  Basically we can have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple stakes, so there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high stakes game where its 10 gold a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, or a low stakes game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1 gold per round, etc. or perhaps the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of ante to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round escalated (i.e. it's low in the first 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of rounds but when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get into the 5th or 6th round the stakes get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher making it a riskier
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and thus more fun!) to continue or bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a bit of omission when Alan and I were 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to remember how we played
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game, there was some publicly displayed 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of dice, either dice that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are shared by all players or maybe each players 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 3 dice are displayed,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this will give something for other players to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> try to judge whether the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person is bluffing or not and to try to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calculate the odds.  The game was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally conceived of as a combination of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liar's dice game on pirates
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the carribean and texas hold'em, so I am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice was part of what made the game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fun and playable.  Sorry it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hard to explain via e-mail without having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice in front of me but what i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean is this:   we could either have 3 dice that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are shared amongst all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are rolled.  Now the players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he rolled a 3 and a 4 in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his personal hidden dice, and claims he has a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pair of 3's.  The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  The game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every players first 3 dice are visible to all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players, and all subsequence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games is figuring out the odds, trying to get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lucky on dice rolls and trying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to guess if other people are bluffing.  Part of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all three of those things is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people hints to try to guess at what the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person REALLY has.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Having the visible dice is that tantalizing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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