[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:37:05 -0700

but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff about the

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you have
>>> to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante (depending on
>>> how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb right now lol) and if
>>> you don't you can't play?
>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular poker
>>>> where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and the person
>>>> that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, and the second
>>>> place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy to me.  I 
>>>> would
>>>> actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't have enough
>>>> money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and kicked from
>>>> the table until they have enough.
>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the pirate
>>>> dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3 games of
>>>> pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a high 
>>>> stakes
>>>> game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to loan small
>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if you run
>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can earn 
>>>> you
>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work as a
>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a mini bar
>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the rats and
>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever stuck and
>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE when
>>>>> you are "all in"?
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as well.
>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are the most
>>>>>> simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first round
>>>>>> starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in the
>>>>>> game and call you would need to state that you have a greater than or 
>>>>>> equal
>>>>>> hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 version of
>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest of the
>>>>>>> areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured i'd better 
>>>>>>> talk it
>>>>>>> out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a way i was 
>>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>>> it could work:
>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden dice.
>>>>>>>  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for balance, but 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and claims
>>>>>>> a combination to open the match
>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1 coin
>>>>>>> in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or fold out
>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden dice is
>>>>>>> rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided increment. 
>>>>>>>  For
>>>>>>> example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, etc.
>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden dice have
>>>>>>> been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around to everyone else,
>>>>>>> everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination wins.
>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call bluff,
>>>>>>> we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we were playing 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need calling a bluff at all,
>>>>>>> really when playing through just be ante'ing up and continuing on you're
>>>>>>> essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular poker a bluffer 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that the proof is in 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> pudding.
>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work anyhow.
>>>>>>>  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can call "bluff" on 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> previous person's claim instead of claiming for their round, they still 
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff is called, the 
>>>>>>> accused
>>>>>>> reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and pays a liars
>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused was 
>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee 
>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables a 
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely all 
>>>>>>> ears if
>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round. be
>>>>>>>> affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small blinds?
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see what you
>>>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then the
>>>>>>>>>> next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>> them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say 
>>>>>>>>>>>> something as
>>>>>>>>>>>> high or higher than one the last person said so that to bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> push them
>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have progressively
>>>>>>>>>>> higher combinations of dice, basically what you said is exactly 
>>>>>>>>>>> right - if
>>>>>>>>>>> you want to stay in you have to have or claim to have a better 
>>>>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>>>>> of dice than the person before you,  so essentially you're betting 
>>>>>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>>>>>> trying to bluff them out with every turn.  Raising and making bets 
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm pretty
>>>>>>>>>>> sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a point system 
>>>>>>>>>>> where if
>>>>>>>>>>> you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you got called for 
>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing
>>>>>>>>>>> you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember though... but i 
>>>>>>>>>>> dont think
>>>>>>>>>>> we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its simple
>>>>>>>>>>> and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for players who 
>>>>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>>>>>> playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas though!  I was just 
>>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>>> through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI and i 
>>>>>>>>>>> realized that
>>>>>>>>>>> betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially 
>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing
>>>>>>>>>>> anyways whenever you claim you have a better hand on your turn
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>> them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> high or higher than one the last person said so that to bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the players
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the room (since there may be more players than are sitting 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work out some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinks in the game flow before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the standard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to have) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically I was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I think 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you have the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a pre-defined 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current design but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds but when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a riskier 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how we played 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge whether 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The game was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared amongst all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone ante's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now the players 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 3 and a 4 in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his personal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  The rest of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see all he needed to do was roll one 3 himself in order to get 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The game escalates from 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all subsequence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice rolls are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is figuring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls and trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess if other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people are bluffing.  Part of all three of those things is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hints to try to guess at what the other person REALLY has.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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