[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 12:51:35 -0700

Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool with
> charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could even make an
> exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be honest and
> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless they
> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously would make
> us a gambling site :P
>
> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the demand for gold
> in the game is really high and there's a lot you can do with that money that
> gives it value... i just dont know if that principle translates here quite
> yet, but possibly in the future!
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying for
>> stuff that is available to everyone.
>>
>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The player
>> should be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not everyone will
>> want to play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame variety I
>> think another way to earn money could be allowing the players to spend real
>> money and save time.
>>
>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or an
>> additional character.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you
>>> have to pay for content.
>>>
>>> This may be different though.
>>>
>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this way
>>> yeah (:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> VIP anyone?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag players
>>>>> who buy money and only allow them to play with other players who buy money
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will
>>>>>> have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I
>>>>>> think it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. There 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real 
>>>>>> life
>>>>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>>>>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>>>>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz 
>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff
>>>>>>>> about the game
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe 
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so
>>>>>>>>>>> you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb 
>>>>>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular
>>>>>>>>>>>> poker where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> person that is out of money would just win the main pot if he 
>>>>>>>>>>>> wins, and the
>>>>>>>>>>>> second place person would get the side pot... but that seems 
>>>>>>>>>>>> clumsy to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would actually say we should just make it that if someone 
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't have
>>>>>>>>>>>> enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and kicked
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 games
>>>>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then 
>>>>>>>>>>>> a high
>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> loan small
>>>>>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if 
>>>>>>>>>>>> you run
>>>>>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that 
>>>>>>>>>>>> can earn you
>>>>>>>>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could 
>>>>>>>>>>>> work as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a 
>>>>>>>>>>>> mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the 
>>>>>>>>>>>> rats and
>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever 
>>>>>>>>>>>> stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE
>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game and call you would need to state that you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greater than or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figured i'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here's a way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i was thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 coin in and claim to top the previous person's combination, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, or double 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> around to everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enables a really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all ears if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had a point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out some kinks in the game flow before i finalize 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have, and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have) every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically I was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing.  Part of all three of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has.  Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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