[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:47:26 -0400

as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool with
charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could even make an
exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be honest and
say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless they
could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously would make
us a gambling site :P

gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the demand for gold
in the game is really high and there's a lot you can do with that money that
gives it value... i just dont know if that principle translates here quite
yet, but possibly in the future!

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying for
> stuff that is available to everyone.
> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The player should
> be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not everyone will want to
> play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame variety I think
> another way to earn money could be allowing the players to spend real money
> and save time.
> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or an
> additional character.
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you have
>> to pay for content.
>> This may be different though.
>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this way
>> yeah (:
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>> VIP anyone?
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag players
>>>> who buy money and only allow them to play with other players who buy money
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will
>>>>> have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I
>>>>> think it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. There 
>>>>> are
>>>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real life
>>>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>>>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>>>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff
>>>>>>> about the game
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe 
>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe 
>>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you
>>>>>>>>>> have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb 
>>>>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular
>>>>>>>>>>> poker where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting 
>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>> person that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, 
>>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>>> second place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy 
>>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>>> I would actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>> enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified 
>>>>>>>>>>> and kicked
>>>>>>>>>>> from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 
>>>>>>>>>>> 3 games
>>>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a 
>>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to 
>>>>>>>>>>> loan small
>>>>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if 
>>>>>>>>>>> you run
>>>>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can 
>>>>>>>>>>> earn you
>>>>>>>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work 
>>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a 
>>>>>>>>>>> mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the 
>>>>>>>>>>> rats and
>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever 
>>>>>>>>>>> stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE
>>>>>>>>>>>> when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first
>>>>>>>>>>>>> round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game and call you would need to state that you have a greater 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> go without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'd better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way i was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 coin in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, or double 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is called,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a really
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all ears if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically what 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out some kinks in the game flow before i finalize 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have, and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have) every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing.  Part of all three of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has.  Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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