[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:53:13 -0700

I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying for
stuff that is available to everyone.

If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The player should
be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not everyone will want to
play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame variety I think
another way to earn money could be allowing the players to spend real money
and save time.

To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or an
additional character.

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you have
> to pay for content.
> This may be different though.
> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this way
> yeah (:
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>> VIP anyone?
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag players
>>> who buy money and only allow them to play with other players who buy money
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will
>>>> have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I
>>>> think it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. There 
>>>> are
>>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real life
>>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff about
>>>>>> the game
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz 
>>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe 
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you
>>>>>>>>> have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb 
>>>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes 
>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular
>>>>>>>>>> poker where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> person that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, 
>>>>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>>>>> second place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy 
>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>> I would actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't 
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and 
>>>>>>>>>> kicked
>>>>>>>>>> from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3 
>>>>>>>>>> games
>>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a 
>>>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>>>> stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to 
>>>>>>>>>> loan small
>>>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if 
>>>>>>>>>> you run
>>>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can 
>>>>>>>>>> earn you
>>>>>>>>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work 
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a 
>>>>>>>>>> mini bar
>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the 
>>>>>>>>>> rats and
>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever 
>>>>>>>>>> stuck and
>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE
>>>>>>>>>>> when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as
>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are
>>>>>>>>>>>> the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first
>>>>>>>>>>>> round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the game and call you would need to state that you have a greater 
>>>>>>>>>>>> than or
>>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>>>>>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 
>>>>>>>>>>>> version of
>>>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'd better
>>>>>>>>>>>>> talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> way i was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> coin in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fold out
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>  For example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> call "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> round, they
>>>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> called,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pays a liars
>>>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> a really
>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> all ears if
>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically what you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a better 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players than 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out some kinks in the game flow before i finalize 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have) every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stay in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  The 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing.  Part of all three of those 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has.  Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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