[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:36:20 -0700

that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>
>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you have to
>> have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>
>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante (depending on
>> how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb right now lol) and if
>> you don't you can't play?
>>
>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>
>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular poker where
>>> it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and the person that is
>>> out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, and the second place
>>> person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy to me.  I would
>>> actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't have enough
>>> money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and kicked from
>>> the table until they have enough.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the pirate
>>> dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3 games of
>>> pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a high stakes
>>> game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to loan small
>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if you run
>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can earn you
>>> cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you could work as a
>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a mini bar
>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the rats and
>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever stuck and
>>> completely unable to play...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?  IE when you
>>>> are "all in"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are the most
>>>>> simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>
>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first round
>>>>> starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>
>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in the game
>>>>> and call you would need to state that you have a greater than or equal 
>>>>> hand
>>>>> than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>
>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 version of
>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest of the
>>>>>> areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured i'd better 
>>>>>> talk it
>>>>>> out first.  I think you have the right idea but here's a way i was 
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>> it could work:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden dice.
>>>>>>  (I think these amounts may change when we play test for balance, but 
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> is an ok starting point)
>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and claims
>>>>>> a combination to open the match
>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1 coin
>>>>>> in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or fold out
>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden dice is
>>>>>> rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided increment.  
>>>>>> For
>>>>>> example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, etc.
>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden dice have
>>>>>> been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around to everyone else,
>>>>>> everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination wins.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call bluff,
>>>>>> we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we were playing 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need calling a bluff at all,
>>>>>> really when playing through just be ante'ing up and continuing on you're
>>>>>> essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like regular poker a bluffer 
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that the proof is in the
>>>>>> pudding.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work anyhow.
>>>>>>  One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can call "bluff" on the
>>>>>> previous person's claim instead of claiming for their round, they still 
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  Once bluff is called, the 
>>>>>> accused
>>>>>> reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and pays a liars
>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if the accused was telling
>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee 
>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>> to the round's ante.  my problem with any of these is it enables a really
>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely all ears 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round. be
>>>>>>> affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small blinds?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see what you
>>>>>>>>> think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then the next
>>>>>>>>> 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played it,
>>>>>>>>>>> i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones and 
>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them
>>>>>>>>>>> out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say something 
>>>>>>>>>>> as high or
>>>>>>>>>>> higher than one the last person said so that to bluff someone out 
>>>>>>>>>>> you have
>>>>>>>>>>> to basically say you have something higher than them to push them 
>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just
>>>>>>>>>>> tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have progressively
>>>>>>>>>> higher combinations of dice, basically what you said is exactly 
>>>>>>>>>> right - if
>>>>>>>>>> you want to stay in you have to have or claim to have a better 
>>>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>>>> of dice than the person before you,  so essentially you're betting 
>>>>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>>>>> trying to bluff them out with every turn.  Raising and making bets is
>>>>>>>>>> redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm pretty
>>>>>>>>>> sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a point system 
>>>>>>>>>> where if
>>>>>>>>>> you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you got called for 
>>>>>>>>>> bluffing
>>>>>>>>>> you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really remember though... but i 
>>>>>>>>>> dont think
>>>>>>>>>> we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its simple
>>>>>>>>>> and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for players who 
>>>>>>>>>> continue
>>>>>>>>>> playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas though!  I was just 
>>>>>>>>>> working
>>>>>>>>>> through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI and i realized 
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially 
>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing
>>>>>>>>>> anyways whenever you claim you have a better hand on your turn
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten that
>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we played
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you can't raise someones 
>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>> them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in you have to say 
>>>>>>>>>>>> something as
>>>>>>>>>>>> high or higher than one the last person said so that to bluff 
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them to 
>>>>>>>>>>>> push them
>>>>>>>>>>>> out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the players in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the room (since there may be more players than are sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work out some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kinks in the game flow before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the standard 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  Basically the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to have) every 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  Basically I was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I think 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you have the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a pre-defined ante, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that either 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current design but I 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense when put 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, so there 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes game 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds but when 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a riskier 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how we played 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge whether 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  The game was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on pirates 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having that 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  Sorry it is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but what i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared amongst all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone ante's up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled.  Now the players roll 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice.  Player one sees he rolled a 3 and a 4 in his 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's.  The rest of the players 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can see all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he needed to do was roll one 3 himself in order to get that pair 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 3's so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he is probably not bluffing.  The game escalates from there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all subsequence 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice rolls are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is figuring
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls and trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess if other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people are bluffing.  Part of all three of those things is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hints to try to guess at what the other person REALLY has.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Having the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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