[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI

  • From: Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>
  • To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:22:26 -0700

from a technical pov i dont think it'd be too big a deal to sell people in
game money

but for us to allow it to go the other way too is when it would make a lot
of problems for us

so i'm down with #1 but not with #2 for what its worth

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:10 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> right... but farmville has something you can spend that money on to make
> that money valuable... like in the future when we have more games and items
> you can purchase for your character, etc, people will be more apt to
> purchase gold, but right now i can't see it being a viable option...
> definitely soemthing to look forward to in the future.
> 20,000 a month? lol people are such rubes
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> farmville makes over $20,000 a month on people spending REAL cash for
>> ingame money to buy tractors and such.
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:51 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Imagine that, Pirate Dice gambling for real money
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:47 PM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>> as long as there's an in game way to earn money in game, i am cool with
>>>> charging real life cash for pirate dice money.  we could even make an
>>>> exclusive VIP club for "paying" customers - but i have to be honest and
>>>> say... i am not sure why people would pay for money in game unless they
>>>> could convert that money back into IRL cash... and that obviously would 
>>>> make
>>>> us a gambling site :P
>>>> gold in games like WoW is worth real life money because the demand for
>>>> gold in the game is really high and there's a lot you can do with that 
>>>> money
>>>> that gives it value... i just dont know if that principle translates here
>>>> quite yet, but possibly in the future!
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:53 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>> I think there is a difference between paying for content and paying for
>>>>> stuff that is available to everyone.
>>>>> If the player has to spend timea mini game to earn money. The player
>>>>> should be able to have an alternative to earning money. Not everyone will
>>>>> want to play that mini game. In addition to making more minigame variety I
>>>>> think another way to earn money could be allowing the players to spend 
>>>>> real
>>>>> money and save time.
>>>>> To me, paying for content would be more like paying for a patch or an
>>>>> additional character.
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>> Well i was just bringin it up cause i know eric hates games where you
>>>>>> have to pay for content.
>>>>>> This may be different though.
>>>>>> If so, it would be nice to be able to make a lil stream of money this
>>>>>> way yeah (:
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Nick Klotz 
>>>>>> <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>> VIP anyone?
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag
>>>>>>>> players who buy money and only allow them to play with other players 
>>>>>>>> who buy
>>>>>>>> money
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen 
>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game
>>>>>>>>> will have better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>>>>>>>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I
>>>>>>>>> think it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. 
>>>>>>>>> There are
>>>>>>>>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real 
>>>>>>>>> life
>>>>>>>>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? 
>>>>>>>>> After
>>>>>>>>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money 
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff
>>>>>>>>>>> about the game
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <
>>>>>>>>>>>> roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies.  :P
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dumb right now
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poker where it creates a side pot for people to continue 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person that is out of money would just win the main pot if he 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wins, and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> second place person would get the side pot... but that seems 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clumsy to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would actually say we should just make it that if someone 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> enough money to buy in for an entire game, they are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disqualified and kicked
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there's 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> games of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> high stakes game.  We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offers to loan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small amounts of money at high interest, and what i was 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thinking was if you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that can earn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you cash that is free.  I was thinking it could be like, you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could work as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a mini bar
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rats and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ever stuck and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IE when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are the most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the game and call you would need to state that you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> greater than or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equal hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to go without for now. I could see it potentially working in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a 2v2 version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i figured i'd
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better talk it out first.  I think you have the right idea 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but here's a way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i was thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice.  (I think these amounts may change when we play 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> test for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put 1 coin in and claim to top the previous person's 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination, or fold
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a  2nd hidden
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> increment.  For example it could go up 1 each round, or 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> double each round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden dice have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gone around to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> call bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while we were
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game.  I think pirate dice might not need 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff"  - just like 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular poker a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that the proof
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work anyhow.  One way I was thinking was at any time, a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person can call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "bluff" on the previous person's claim instead of claiming 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for their round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once bluff is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called, the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forfeits and pays
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a liars fee equivalent to the round's ante.  Likewise, if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the accused was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> telling the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tattler's fee
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent to the round's ante.  my problem with any of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these is it enables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a really easy kingmaker for people working together, but i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> am definitely all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ears if anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> round. be affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and small
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see what you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then the next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't raise someones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as high or higher than one the last person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said so that to bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out you have to basically say you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something higher than them to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> progressively higher combinations of dice, basically 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what you said is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exactly right - if you want to stay in you have to have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or claim to have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better combination of dice than the person before you,  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you're betting more and trying to bluff them out with 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn.  Raising
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and making bets is redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we had a point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you got called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc.  i don't really 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its simple and easy while still keeping a high 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> risk/reward for players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though!  I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the UI and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forgotten that aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we played it, i wish i could.  If you can't bet, you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't raise someones
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and bluff them out.  Is it that if you want to stay in 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something as high or higher than one the last person 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> said so that to bluff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone out you have to basically say you have 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something higher than them to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> push them out?  Just tryin to wrap my head around it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the players in the room (since there may be more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players than are sitting
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>   On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work out some kinks in the game flow before i 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically the gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have, and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have) every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically I was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pre-defined ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the previous player.  I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> design but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective.  Basically we can have multiple stakes, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to stay in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rounds but when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bit of omission when Alan and I were trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember how we played the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game, there was some publicly displayed amount of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice, either dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> judge whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The game was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> game on pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> having that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry it is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> me but what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this:   we could either have 3 dice that are shared 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amongst all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolled.  Now the players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> roll their first 2 hidden dice.  Player one sees he 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolled a 3 and a 4 in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 3's.  The rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The game escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice rolls and trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guess if other people are bluffing.  Part of all 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> three of those things is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving people hints to try to guess at what the 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other person REALLY has.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>  Having the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?

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