[project1dev] Re: new pirate dice UI
- From: Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: project1dev@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:35:11 -0400
VIP anyone?
On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 2:08 PM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Another thought for allowing buyable money is that you can flag players who
> buy money and only allow them to play with other players who buy money
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Kent Petersen <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I like the newer ideas going into pirate dice. I think the game will have
>> better flow and be more of its own entity.
>>
>> I also like the idea of letting people spend real money on games. I think
>> it opens of your audience to a wider range of adult players. There are
>> plenty of people out there who would rather spend a few bucks in real life
>> than play a repetitive mini game to earn money. So why allow both? After
>> enough time has passed on the game servers there will be enough money in
>> circulation that it would not matter as much to game balance.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:44 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a fan of generating money. :T
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>
>>>> but, dunno how eric feels about that... it could ruin some stuff about
>>>> the game
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> that would be a good way to generate some revenue :P
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:29 AM, Nick Klotz <roracsenshi@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Give people the option to buy gold with real monies. :P
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 1:22 PM, Alan Wolfe <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That sounds like a good solution eric
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So if there are 3 private dice that means 3 rounds of play, so you
>>>>>>> have to have 3x of ante? (or is it 4 rounds?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in any case you would have to have either 3x or 4x the ante
>>>>>>> (depending on how many rounds of betting there are cause i am dumb
>>>>>>> right now
>>>>>>> lol) and if you don't you can't play?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If so, sounds great to me, good way to plug the hole.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 10:14 AM, eric drewes <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> kent you have it exactly right i think.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> alan - that is a good question... we could do it like regular poker
>>>>>>>> where it creates a side pot for people to continue betting and the
>>>>>>>> person
>>>>>>>> that is out of money would just win the main pot if he wins, and the
>>>>>>>> second
>>>>>>>> place person would get the side pot... but that seems clumsy to me. I
>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>> actually say we should just make it that if someone doesn't have enough
>>>>>>>> money to buy in for an entire game, they are disqualified and kicked
>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>> the table until they have enough.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok so here's my view of how it should work - when you enter the
>>>>>>>> pirate dice area, you start off with an amount of gold and there's 3
>>>>>>>> games
>>>>>>>> of pirate dice going, 1 with a low ante, 1 with a medium and then a
>>>>>>>> high
>>>>>>>> stakes game. We could also have a "loan shark" NPC who offers to loan
>>>>>>>> small
>>>>>>>> amounts of money at high interest, and what i was thinking was if you
>>>>>>>> run
>>>>>>>> out of $$$ completely, we have a 2nd mini game in the area that can
>>>>>>>> earn you
>>>>>>>> cash that is free. I was thinking it could be like, you could work as
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> bartender and the drink buyer gives you a tip and we could make a mini
>>>>>>>> bar
>>>>>>>> tending game, or you have to go in the backroom and catch all the rats
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> they give you a fixed amount per rat... that way, no one is ever stuck
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> completely unable to play...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:44 PM, Alan Wolfe
>>>>>>>> <alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> what happens if the ante comes up and you are out of money? IE
>>>>>>>>> when you are "all in"?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Kent Petersen
>>>>>>>>> <kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting. I think this new method sounds pretty solid as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am all for simplifying the game. I think the best games are the
>>>>>>>>>> most simple. Easy to play, hard to master.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So to change the game from how it is to the new model we would.
>>>>>>>>>> 1) make 3 dice visible and 3 hiddden dice per player, first round
>>>>>>>>>> starts with 3 visible dice rolled and 1 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>> 2) remove raising
>>>>>>>>>> 3) set an ante amount that is paid every round
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If players still state what they have in their hand to stay in the
>>>>>>>>>> game and call you would need to state that you have a greater than
>>>>>>>>>> or equal
>>>>>>>>>> hand than the person who called before you right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I see your point on bluffing mechanics it is probably best to go
>>>>>>>>>> without for now. I could see it potentially working in a 2v2 version
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> pirate dice.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 7:38 PM, eric drewes
>>>>>>>>>> <figarus@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> hey now that we have it worked out i'll finish making the rest of
>>>>>>>>>>> the areas you need, i wasn't sure how to proceed so i figured i'd
>>>>>>>>>>> better
>>>>>>>>>>> talk it out first. I think you have the right idea but here's a
>>>>>>>>>>> way i was
>>>>>>>>>>> thinking it could work:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) each player ante's up.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2) the 3 shared dice are rolled and each player rolls 1 hidden
>>>>>>>>>>> dice. (I think these amounts may change when we play test for
>>>>>>>>>>> balance, but
>>>>>>>>>>> this is an ok starting point)
>>>>>>>>>>> 3) the person to the left of the dealer puts in 1 coin and and
>>>>>>>>>>> claims a combination to open the match
>>>>>>>>>>> 4) it goes clockwise around the table, players can either put 1
>>>>>>>>>>> coin in and claim to top the previous person's combination, or fold
>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> 5) once it gets back to the starting person, a 2nd hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>> is rolled, also the amount to stay in the game up a pre-decided
>>>>>>>>>>> increment.
>>>>>>>>>>> For example it could go up 1 each round, or double each round, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> 6) it goes around until only one person is left or 3 hidden dice
>>>>>>>>>>> have been rolled, if 3 have been rolled and its gone around to
>>>>>>>>>>> everyone
>>>>>>>>>>> else, everyone reveals their dice and the highest combination wins.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> hey alan, I am thinking that even though we had a rule to call
>>>>>>>>>>> bluff, we kinda stopped callign it or it was infrequent while we
>>>>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>>>>> playing the actual game. I think pirate dice might not need
>>>>>>>>>>> calling a bluff
>>>>>>>>>>> at all, really when playing through just be ante'ing up and
>>>>>>>>>>> continuing on
>>>>>>>>>>> you're essentially "calling their bluff" - just like regular poker
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> bluffer can keep bluffing all the way till the reveal, after that
>>>>>>>>>>> the proof
>>>>>>>>>>> is in the pudding.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I am not sure how the mechanics for calling bluff would work
>>>>>>>>>>> anyhow. One way I was thinking was at any time, a person can call
>>>>>>>>>>> "bluff"
>>>>>>>>>>> on the previous person's claim instead of claiming for their round,
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> still have to pay the ante-in fee to call a bluff. Once bluff is
>>>>>>>>>>> called,
>>>>>>>>>>> the accused reveals his dice, if he was lying, he forfeits and pays
>>>>>>>>>>> a liars
>>>>>>>>>>> fee equivalent to the round's ante. Likewise, if the accused was
>>>>>>>>>>> telling
>>>>>>>>>>> the truth, he forfeits and the accuser has to pay a tattler's fee
>>>>>>>>>>> equivalent
>>>>>>>>>>> to the round's ante. my problem with any of these is it enables a
>>>>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>>>>> easy kingmaker for people working together, but i am definitely all
>>>>>>>>>>> ears if
>>>>>>>>>>> anyone has an idea how to make it work.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 9:56 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> How would the new way of raising, ante increases each round. be
>>>>>>>>>>>> affected by the blinds? Do you still want a large and small blinds?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:53 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where would you want the shared dice to be displayed?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Kent Petersen <
>>>>>>>>>>>>> kentkmp@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> UI screen looks nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think I am following you. I will make some mods and see what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you think.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, by not folding you are saying you are raising?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like the first 3 dice to roll as public and then the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next 3 dice to come out one turn at a time?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:04 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could. If you can't bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out. Is it that if you want to stay in you have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out? Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you raise and bluff people by claiming you have progressively
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher combinations of dice, basically what you said is exactly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right - if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you want to stay in you have to have or claim to have a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> combination
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of dice than the person before you, so essentially you're
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting more and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to bluff them out with every turn. Raising and making
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bets is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> redundant to the premise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan i was thinking about it and i talked to misty and i'm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty sure we didn't bet anything when we played, we had a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> point system
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where if you won you got 2 points, folded you got 0, if you got
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> called for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing you lost 3 points, etc. i don't really remember
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though... but i
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dont think we bet...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I really like the idea of escalating antes per round, its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple and easy while still keeping a high risk/reward for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue playing - I am, of course, open to other ideas though!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working through playing pirate dice in my head to make the UI
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and i realized
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that betting, etc. overly complicates when you're essentially
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting/bluffing anyways whenever you claim you have a better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hand on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oh and the UI looks nice btw!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Alan Wolfe <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alan.wolfe@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think that makes a lot of sense, and i had forgotten that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aspect of the game (the public dice).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the betting thing, i can't remember what we did when we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played it, i wish i could. If you can't bet, you can't raise
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> someones and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff them out. Is it that if you want to stay in you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to say something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as high or higher than one the last person said so that to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluff someone out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you have to basically say you have something higher than them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to push them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out? Just tryin to wrap my head around it hehe
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For the chat window, we also need a place to list the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players in the room (since there may be more players than are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sitting down).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 1:51 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> labeled version
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 4:44 PM, eric drewes <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figarus@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have started on the UI but I think we need to work out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some kinks in the game flow before i finalize things...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically i was trying to think of this game from a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiplayer perspective and I have a problem w/ the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard raise/call
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> format of poker in relevance to this game. Basically the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gameplay comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from divulging the type and combination of dice you have,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and since you tell
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or what you're pretending to have)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every turn,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> betting doesn't work in the conventional way. Basically I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was thinking that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rather than escalating the bets manually as players, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think there should be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an "ante" to stay in whenever it is your turn, so you have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the choice of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either folding out of the game or putting in a pre-defined
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante, telling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone what you have (or are pretending to have) that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either beats, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matches the previous player, or calling the bluff of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous player. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> realize this is a slight deviation from the current design
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I think it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will function much more cleanly and it makes more sense
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when put into a game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> perspective. Basically we can have multiple stakes, so
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there can be a high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stakes game where its 10 gold a round, or a low stakes game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where it's 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gold per round, etc. or perhaps the amount of ante to stay
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in per round
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalated (i.e. it's low in the first couple of rounds but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you get into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 5th or 6th round the stakes get higher making it a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> riskier thing (and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thus more fun!) to continue or bluff or call a bluff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing I was thinking about and this was a bit of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> omission when Alan and I were trying to remember how we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> played the game,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there was some publicly displayed amount of dice, either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dice that are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared by all players or maybe each players first 3 dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are displayed, this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will give something for other players to try to judge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether the person is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bluffing or not and to try to calculate the odds. The game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was originally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conceived of as a combination of the liar's dice game on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pirates of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> carribean and texas hold'em, so I am pretty sure having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that visible dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was part of what made the game fun and playable. Sorry it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is hard to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain via e-mail without having dice in front of me but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what i mean is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this: we could either have 3 dice that are shared amongst
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all players
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (like the flop in texas hold'em)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's 3 public dice, they are rolled once everyone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ante's up - let's say a 3, a 6 and a 2 are rolled. Now the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players roll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their first 2 hidden dice. Player one sees he rolled a 3
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and a 4 in his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal hidden dice, and claims he has a pair of 3's. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rest of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players can see all he needed to do was roll one 3 himself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in order to get
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that pair of 3's so he is probably not bluffing. The game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> escalates from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likewise the second version could work where every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players first 3 dice are visible to all players, and all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subsequence dice
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rolls are hidden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The fun part of gambling and playing these games is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> figuring out the odds, trying to get lucky on dice rolls
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and trying to guess
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if other people are bluffing. Part of all three of those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things is giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people hints to try to guess at what the other person
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REALLY has. Having
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the visible dice is that tantalizing hint. :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you guy's think?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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