--- In Wittrs@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, "gabuddabout" <wittrsamr@...> wrote: > Synchronic causation is the realizer, somehow, awaiting further work on correlating consciousness, say, with NCCs. Forgive me, what are NCCs? Let's see if I get your drift. In brain research, there is evidence of Correlation,i.e., stimulate brain center 1 and, simultaneously, the subjects reports experience x; and evidence for "synchronic cuusation", i..e, stimulate brain center 2 and moments later the subject reports experience y. The facts are there. Now how do we conceptualize them? You suggest how in the paragraphs below. But I struggle to understand. I'm going to try to write something now. It probably need revision. But in that way you an see where I'm stuck > ... the kicked ball can be a case of causation, conventionally understood.. Yes. Take the person out of the description. The leg and the ball follow the laws of physics. > So, perhaps we refer to mind as ontological subjectivity I've never grasped your use of "ontological subjectivity." Why not just use the word "mind" in its ordinary sense? > (at some system level of synchronic causation) that is yet caused (causal reducibility) by lower level neuron firing. When I think "I'm kicking the ball" certain neurons are firing. You're saying the firing neurons cause my thinking. > The firing causes the consciousness while the consciousness is understood as a state the system is in at > a level of description involving synchronic causation that is not spelled out in formal PP terms, but BP (brute physical) terms. The above sentence is saying: "My conscious experience of kicking can be described by nerve impulses." In this causal chain, the person who comes to have the kicking experience is located where? At the end? A person at the end of the neurons? > there has to be some scientific story to tell as to what allows for falling asleep and waking in the brain. There is. Specific biochemical changes in the body cause our body to fall asleep and then awake. The conceptual problem is a coherent account of where the person stands in relationship to these bodily experiences that is neither supernatural or dualistic. More later. bruce > ========================================= Need Something? Check here: http://ludwig.squarespace.com/wittrslinks/