Dear Philip, We are all arrogant whether we like it or not. You are arrogant about Roman Catholicism, Neville is arrogant about geocentrism and I am arrogant my faith and geocentrism, which includes creation. We all believe we are correct (have knowledge of the truth) therefore we either agree to disagree or we express ourselves and beliefs in an arrogant way. ultimately God will be the judge. Question: How complicated must something get before it is considered 'un-designed'? Or put another way; What is the minimum that can be removed from a 'biological' organism that will allow it to be considered designed? My Thoughts: I suspect that the difference will reduce down to whether it is 'alive' or not. I then ask myself, what then is it about being 'alive' that would make it un-designed? Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 10:09 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Evolution That's my whole point Philip, even you can't see it! Our own bodies are a living testimony to a fantastic complex creation that cannot be compared to a bucket, spade, computer or even a crab. Jack. Dear Jack , Are you not being rather arrogant almost insulting in predisposing yourself as the ultimate perfection in the ability to reason. It is you who have limited your rational science as to what you call "complexity of order" whereas I and others can see it more clearly as a complexity of disorder. Let me put it differently. It is not perfect. In a very small way man has perfected some of these imperfections. The Polio Vaccine is just one example that comes to mind, saving millions and millions of childrens lives. The disorder in nature even fights this simple intervention, as new deseases develope. I know that if I were to ask you to explain some of this your response should be , It is written, 'Who can divine the ways of the Lord......my ways are not your ways.. etc. You cannot see what I and others can see. Whereas the bucket and the computer are ordered and symetrical, almost perfect designs (they do what they were designed to do always) , life and the cosmos by its complexity is not ordered, but the opposite, wildly disordered, lacking any evident design or purpose other than experimentation . You are indeed like the person who would think the "volcano is a god". I wonder and worry that your faith could withstand being truely enlightened in science, based as it is upon your claim to superior intellectual reasoning capability. It is not a sound base upon which faith is built. 27 But the foolish things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the wise: and the weak things of the world hath God chosen, that he may confound the strong. Perhaps this is the reason why there are so many opposing varieties in the world today claiming to be the true religion. People consider themselves too wise, and too strong... Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack Lewis To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2007 7:39 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Evolution Dear Philip, See all below. -- Original Message ----- From: philip madsen To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Evolution I cant agree Jack.. Paul already has his own body to observe, which is far more complicated than a crabs, without going to the beach. Biological items cannot be compared with inamimate objects such as a bucket or a computer. That's my whole point Philip, even you can't see it! Our own bodies are a living testimony to a fantastic complex creation that cannot be compared to a bucket, spade, computer or even a crab. So why do you stop at common sense reasoning as soon a 'life' (biology) is the subject? You're postion is no different than Jacques Monod, whose book was trounced by Wilder-Smith. Jack ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.33/1037 - Release Date: 29/09/2007 1:32 PM