[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
- From: "Mike Geary" <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 23:08:22 -0600
To say we are wrong in opposing Islamism is tantamount to saying we are
wrong in favoring our own survival.<<
I am not opposed to Islamism. And I won't be until I perceive them as
trying to make me follow their dictates. So far none have. Christian
fundamentalists are much more my enemy because they are trying to force
their strictures on me. Both are fascists. The Christians are in my back
yard. The Islamists are 9000 miles away. I understand why the Islamists
are anti-Western -- they see us as threatening their whole way of life. And
we are. The band of murderers who attacked the Twin Towers and the
Pentagon, were just that, a band of murderers led by Osama bin Laden. We
gave up looking for Osama for the chance to attack Iraq. It was an illegal,
immoral and unjustified invasion of another country. Why did we do it?
Oil, baby, oil. For oil and to establish a military outpost in the Middle
East. The war in Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism or Islamism or
9/11, it has everything to do with economics and power.
I have no doubt that there are people out there who think it's justified to
kill innocent people, including moi, to obtain their political goals. Our
country also has far too few qualms about that. What I don't understand is
how our alarm over the fact that some people despise and revile us and want
us out of their corner of the world constitutes an enemy that one can go to
war with? Who do we bomb? The madrassas? The mosques? The market places?
The homes? There is no way we can go to war against the "Islamists" because
they're not an entity such as a nation. They have no armies to defeat, no
government to take over. We drove the Taliban from governmental power, but
they are still very much alive in Afghanistan where an insurgency is
growing. If you favor your own survival, I suggest you learn to respect the
desire of others to survive. Islamism as I understand it, doesn't want to
rule us, but the have us out of their world. I have no problem with that.
Let them live in the 7th Century if they choose to. That's their right.
It's not our right to take over their countries for our oil needs.
We'll never agree on this. You seem to me to have a very naive notion of
the character of this country and think that anyone who disagrees with out
goals in the world are enemies to be crushed. That how I see your position.
I'm probably exaggerating it, but that's how it seems and it disturbs me.
As I'm sure my position disturbs you.
Mike Geary
Memphis
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 9:27 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Mike: You should know better than to criticize my reading. I've read
everything - well not everything absolutely, but everything
representatively - nearly. I don't recall reading much Neocon material. I
don't think the Neocon's wrote very much and what they did read was too
brief. The bulk of what they wrote they did so when they were out of
office. Once Bush was elected they quit writing.
In order to show that I'm wrong about our war against Islamism you either
need to show that the Islamists mean us no harm or are incapable of
subjecting us to harm. The Islamists are bent upon our destruction
according to my reading of Sayyid Qutb, Ruhollah Khomeini and Maududi.
Osama bin Laden, a student of Sayyid Qutb's brother has consistently
advocated Qutb's ideology.
If "by the rest of the world," you mean that part of the world which is
anti-American, then I commend you for your consistency.
Lawrence
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Mike Geary
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:15 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Why do you read all that neocon claptrap, Lawrence? They've been wrong from
day one. They're just greed driven men, scared little boys, really. The
whole world told Bush, et al. not to do this, but oh no, they knew best.
They are, after all, Americans. Sorry, guy, the rest world still says we're
wrong and I still agree with the rest of the world.
Mike Geary
Memphis
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:56 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
As I said elsewhere, Osama bin Laden and the Islamists understand how
important Iraq is. They are opposing us there with all they have. It is
complicated, but I could refer you to several books on the matter if you are
interested. For example, the founder of Stratfor, the private organization
that provides Intelligence info to companies and other interested in
international affairs, George Friedman in America's Secret War, Inside the
Hidden Worldwide Struggle between America and its Enemies, describes how the
removal of Saddam's regime was important in the war against the Islamists.
See also, Kennet Pollack's The Treatening Storm, the Case for Invading
Iraq., The Reckoning, Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein by Sandra
Mackey, and The Pentagon's New Map, War and Peace in the Twenty-First
Century by Thomas Barnett.
Lawrence
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:50 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
The Islamists hate us. Iraq has no Islamists. We invade Iraq. Iraq
becomes flooded with Islamists and we're into a trillion dollar war with no
way out. Those are living non-sequiturs, but who cares about that, right?
I give up talking to you Lawrence. I'm out to get my own personal windmill
and tilt against it, hope the Islamists go away.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Helm
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 9:40:29 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Hi John.
Okay, lets clean this up a bit. It would be a valid argument to say that
the Islamists do not intend to conquer us and therefore we shouldnt be
attacking them. However, I dont believe you can produce the evidence to
support such an argument. Not only do the writings of Sayyid Qutb and
Ruhollah Khomeini (the main Sunni and Shiite Islamist ideologues) advocate
such an attack, the followers of these ideologues are actively engaged in
carrying out these attacks.
Also, I dont think you are correct in your argument that the Islamist
insurgents represent Iraq. Well over 70% of Iraqis showed up to vote in the
last election indicating that they favor a democratic government and not the
Islamist insurgents. We are viewed as liberators by those who want
democracy (the bulk of the Iraqis). We are viewed as conquerors by the
fascist Islamists.
We have freed Iraq from a brutal dictator. We are encouraging the
development of democracy in Iraq. We will leave when this new government
can handle its own insurgents.
Who says we are conquerors? The Islamists and anti-Americans.
Who says we are liberators? The people favoring democracy in Iraq.
You spoke of evidence. Over the years I have produced evidence in
copious and sometimes objectionable quantities. I have been known to
challenge those who argue with me to produce evidence to support their
arguments. Do you have evidence to show that the Islamists arent attacking
us? Do have evidence that the Islamists have not declared war against us?
Do you have evidence that the Islamists and other insurgents represent the
will of the majority in Iraq?
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of John McCreery
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:15 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Hi, Lawrence. Good to see you here.
I'll even agree that we need to oppose those who want to conquer us.
Problem No. 1 is that, at this point, the evidence is all on the side
of we want to conquer them and not vice versa. We proclaim our good
intentions, but, hey, so do they. They say that they will attack us
until we are off what they see as their turf. They commit terrorist
acts (which I in no way condone) to demonstrate their seriousness;
but, when push comes to shove, we are the ones with armies invading
and occupying other countries.
What was it Christ said? The bit about the beam in one's own eye
before the mote in the other guys? Not to mention turning the cheek
and loving them that hate you?
John
John McCreery
The Word Works, Ltd.
55-13-202 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku
Yokohama 220-0006, JAPAN
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