It's not that. It's that this war is clearly counterproductive except to those who are committed to a my country right or wrong policy. If that's your position, or another position, then certainly as an American you are entitled to it. We need to agree to disagree, that you think Iraq is the right place to be, and others think Iraq is a breeding ground for Islamists, and let it go at that. Regarding what these organizations think, I don't remember your posts on them. Regardless, even if a year ago they supported the invasion, times have changed, seeds have sprouted and born fruit. It would be interesting to know their position today, especially in light of the fact that this war is turning into an internal hemorrhage for the country. But I'm not rattling your chain, honest. I'm really glad to see you back. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 1/20/2006 10:12:14 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Summarizing would take a bit of time but I?ve done it before ? seems like I?ve done it several times. Feels like my chain is being pulled. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:05 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Can you summarize any of this into your own words? Not what ought to be, oughts and shoulds are a dime a dozen, but what is and how we're now better off than before and what our next steps should be? ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 1/20/2006 9:54:54 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Osama bin Laden and the Islamists understand how important Iraq is. They are opposing us there with all they have. It is complicated, but I could refer you to several books on the matter if you are interested. For example, the founder of Stratfor, the private organization that provides Intelligence info to companies and other interested in international affairs, George Friedman in Americas Secret War, Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle between America and its Enemies, describes how the removal of Saddams regime was important in the war against the Islamists. See also, Kennet Pollacks The Treatening Storm, the Case for Invading Iraq., The Reckoning, Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein by Sandra Mackey, and The Pentagons New Map, War and Peace in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Barnett. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:29 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape I completely fail to understand how opposing the Islamists has anything to do with attacking Iraq or ousting Sadaam. He was a secularist, and what we have done is open the country to waves of Islamists who have footholds and bases for their agendas. If you support the war on Iraq for other reasons, fine. But I don't think you can make the case that attacking Iraq was an opposition to the Islamists. Julie Krueger ========Original Message======== Subj:[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Date:1/20/06 8:04:47 PM Central Standard Time From:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx To:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent on: We have an enemy: the Islamists. The Islamists want to conquer us. We need to oppose them. If you disagree you should logically argue that we dont need to oppose them or that they dont want to conquer us. If we arent opposing them as well as we ought, that doesnt detract from the argument that we ought to oppose them. Although I did mention it as an aside, the people are being provided with faulty information by the media. I blame the media and the people for that. The media for being perverse and the people for being gullible, but I am not surprised by any it. We will (as a people) eventually learn that the enemy is to be taken seriously that he does want to conquer us. It took a lot of blood to get us into both World Wars. We probably need to bleed a bit more before we develop enthusiasm for this one, but notice that Osama does intend to make us bleed. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:44 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Okay, let's cut the leadership some slack. It's all the people's fault that we lost this war. Let's blame them instead. It wasn't Napoleon's fault that he lost (or won). It was the French people, right? So let me get this straight. This is a necessary war, but not an important one. Is that right? And kindly point out the bothersome non sequiturs. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lawrence Helm To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: 1/20/2006 8:38:47 PM Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape You are giving me a headache with your non sequiturs. I didnt discuss the importance, but I do believe it is a necessary war. It can become more important if we dilly dally and let them win more than we ought to let them win. You have introduced several tangents which dont seem important. We have an implacable enemy. We may or may not be fighting him as enthusiastically as we ought. From the fact that so many people want us to withdraw prematurely from Iraq (to the delight of Osama) it is clear that millions dont understand the importance of fighting this enemy. So perhaps the people you refer to as not doing something right ought to be given some slack for not fighting them as well as they might. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Andy Amago Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:25 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape Well, if it was such an important war, why wasn't it fought more seriously? Why did the Army have to laugh at their proposal and insist on a larger army than what Rove & Co. wanted, and still be nowhere close to what was needed? Why was there no plan for after Baghdad fell? Why did we go to war with the army we had instead of the army we needed (a paraphrase)? Why cut taxes when the money is needed for military spending to fund the army to fight this war that we need so desperately? Yadda yadda. In short, why was it not waged as if it was an important war? If you say it was the Democrats' fault, then you're passing the buck. The Republicans run the show and he had everybody's approval in any case.