[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

  • From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:23:37 -0500

It's not that.  It's that this war is clearly counterproductive except to those 
who are committed to a my country right or wrong policy.  If that's your 
position, or another position, then certainly as an American you are entitled 
to it.  We need to agree to disagree, that you think Iraq is the right place to 
be, and others think Iraq is a breeding ground for Islamists, and let it go at 
that.  Regarding what these organizations think, I don't remember your posts on 
them.  Regardless, even if a year ago they supported the invasion, times have 
changed, seeds have sprouted and born fruit.  It would be interesting to know 
their position today, especially in light of the fact that this war is turning 
into an internal hemorrhage for the country.  But I'm not rattling your chain, 
honest.  I'm really glad to see you back.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 10:12:14 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape


Summarizing would take a bit of time but I?ve done it before ? seems like I?ve 
done it several times.  Feels like my chain is being pulled.

Lawrence




From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:05 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Can you summarize any of this into your own words?  Not what ought to be, 
oughts and shoulds are a dime a dozen, but what is and how we're now better off 
than before and what our next steps should be?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 9:54:54 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Osama bin Laden and the Islamists understand how important Iraq is.  They are 
opposing us there with all they have.  It is complicated, but I could refer you 
to several books on the matter if you are interested.  For example, the founder 
of Stratfor, the private organization that provides Intelligence info to 
companies and other interested in international affairs, George Friedman in 
Americas Secret War, Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle between America and 
its Enemies, describes how the removal of Saddams regime was important in the 
war against the Islamists.  

See also, Kennet Pollacks The Treatening Storm, the Case for Invading Iraq., 
The Reckoning, Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein by Sandra Mackey, and The 
Pentagons New Map, War and Peace in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Barnett.

Lawrence






From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:29 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

I completely fail to understand how opposing the Islamists has anything to do 
with attacking Iraq or ousting Sadaam.  He was a secularist, and what we have 
done is open the country to waves of Islamists who have footholds and bases for 
their agendas.  If you support the war on Iraq for other reasons, fine.  But I 
don't think you can make the case that attacking Iraq was an opposition to the 
Islamists.

Julie Krueger

========Original Message======== 
Subj:[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape
Date:1/20/06 8:04:47 PM Central Standard Time
From:lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent on:    


We have an enemy: the Islamists.  The Islamists want to conquer us.  We need to 
oppose them.

If you disagree you should logically argue that we dont need to oppose them or 
that they dont want to conquer us.

If we arent opposing them as well as we ought, that doesnt detract from the 
argument that we ought to oppose them.  Although I did mention it as an aside, 
the people are being provided with faulty information by the media.  I blame 
the media and the people for that.  The media for being perverse and the people 
for being gullible, but I am not surprised by any it.  We will (as a people) 
eventually learn that the enemy is to be taken seriously  that he does want to 
conquer us.  It took a lot of blood to get us into both World Wars.  We 
probably need to bleed a bit more before we develop enthusiasm for this one, 
but notice that Osama does intend to make us bleed.

Lawrence




From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:44 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Okay, let's cut the leadership some slack.  It's all the people's fault that we 
lost this war.  Let's blame them instead.  It wasn't Napoleon's fault that he 
lost (or won).  It was the French people, right?   So let me get this straight. 
 This is a necessary war, but not an important one.  Is that right?  And kindly 
point out the bothersome non sequiturs.  


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 8:38:47 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

You are giving me a headache with your non sequiturs.  I didnt discuss the 
importance, but I do believe it is a necessary war.  It can become more 
important if we dilly dally and let them win more than we ought to let them 
win.  You have introduced several tangents which dont seem important.  We have 
an implacable enemy.  We may or may not be fighting him as enthusiastically as 
we ought.  From the fact that so many people want us to withdraw prematurely 
from Iraq (to the delight of Osama) it is clear that millions dont understand 
the importance of fighting this enemy.   So perhaps the people you refer to 
as not doing something right ought to be given some slack for not fighting them 
as well as they might.  

Lawrence




From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 5:25 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Well, if it was such an important war, why wasn't it fought more seriously?  
Why did the Army have to laugh at their proposal and insist on a larger army 
than what Rove & Co. wanted, and still be nowhere close to what was needed?  
Why was there no plan for after Baghdad fell?  Why did we go to war with the 
army we had instead of the army we needed (a paraphrase)?  Why cut taxes when 
the money is needed for military spending to fund the army to fight this war 
that we need so desperately?  Yadda yadda.  In short, why was it not waged as 
if it was an important war?  If you say it was the Democrats' fault, then 
you're passing the buck.  The Republicans run the show and he had everybody's 
approval in any case.

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