[lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

  • From: "Andy Amago" <aamago@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 22:35:28 -0500

Nobody said opposing Islamism is wrong, only that Iraq is now a breeding ground 
for Islamism. It's a "we broke it, we own it" thing.  That's no way to oppose 
or support anything.  


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 10:27:02 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape


Mike:  You should know better than to criticize my reading.  I?ve read 
everything ? well not everything absolutely, but everything representatively ? 
nearly.  I don?t recall reading much Neocon material.  I don?t think the 
Neocon?s wrote very much and what they did read was too brief.  The bulk of 
what they wrote they did so when they were out of office.  Once Bush was 
elected they quit writing.  

In order to show that I?m wrong about our war against Islamism you either need 
to show that the Islamists mean us no harm or are incapable of subjecting us to 
harm.  The Islamists are bent upon our destruction according to my reading of 
Sayyid Qutb, Ruhollah Khomeini and Maududi.  Osama bin Laden, a student of 
Sayyid Qutb?s brother has consistently advocated Qutb?s ideology.  

To say we are wrong in opposing Islamism is tantamount to saying we are wrong 
in favoring our own survival.  

If ?by the rest of the world,? you mean that part of the world which is 
anti-American, then I commend you for your consistency.

Lawrence




From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Mike Geary
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 7:15 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Why do you read all that neocon claptrap, Lawrence?  They've been wrong from 
day one.  They're just greed driven men, scared little boys, really.  The whole 
world told Bush, et al. not to do this, but oh no, they knew best.  They are, 
after all, Americans.  Sorry, guy, the rest world still says we're wrong and I 
still agree with the rest of the world.

Mike Geary
Memphis
----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:56 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

As I said elsewhere, Osama bin Laden and the Islamists understand how important 
Iraq is.  They are opposing us there with all they have.  It is complicated, 
but I could refer you to several books on the matter if you are interested.  
For example, the founder of Stratfor, the private organization that provides 
Intelligence info to companies and other interested in international affairs, 
George Friedman in America?s Secret War, Inside the Hidden Worldwide Struggle 
between America and its Enemies, describes how the removal of Saddam?s regime 
was important in the war against the Islamists.  

See also, Kennet Pollack?s The Treatening Storm, the Case for Invading Iraq., 
The Reckoning, Iraq and the Legacy of Saddam Hussein by Sandra Mackey, and The 
Pentagon?s New Map, War and Peace in the Twenty-First Century by Thomas Barnett.

Lawrence




From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of Andy Amago
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:50 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

The Islamists hate us.  Iraq has no Islamists.  We invade Iraq.  Iraq becomes 
flooded with Islamists and we're into a trillion dollar war with no way out.  
Those are living non-sequiturs, but who cares about that, right?  I give up 
talking to you Lawrence.  I'm out to get my own personal windmill and tilt 
against it, hope the Islamists go away.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lawrence Helm 
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: 1/20/2006 9:40:29 PM 
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Hi John.  

Okay, lets clean this up a bit.  It would be a valid argument to say that the 
Islamists do not intend to conquer us and therefore we shouldnt be attacking 
them.  However, I dont believe you can produce the evidence to support such an 
argument.  Not only do the writings of Sayyid Qutb and Ruhollah Khomeini (the 
main Sunni and Shiite Islamist ideologues) advocate such an attack, the 
followers of these ideologues are actively engaged in carrying out these 
attacks.  

Also, I dont think you are correct in your argument that the Islamist 
insurgents represent Iraq.  Well over 70% of Iraqis showed up to vote in the 
last election indicating that they favor a democratic government and not the 
Islamist insurgents.  We are viewed as liberators by those who want democracy 
(the bulk of the Iraqis).  We are viewed as conquerors by the fascist 
Islamists.  

We have freed Iraq from a brutal dictator.  We are encouraging the development 
of democracy in Iraq.  We will leave when this new government can handle its 
own insurgents.  

Who says we are conquerors?  The Islamists and anti-Americans.  

Who says we are liberators?  The people favoring democracy in Iraq.

You spoke of evidence.  Over the years I have produced evidence in copious 
and sometimes objectionable quantities.  I have been known to challenge those 
who argue with me to produce evidence to support their arguments.  Do you have 
evidence to show that the Islamists arent attacking us?  Do have evidence that 
the Islamists have not declared war against us?  Do you have evidence that the 
Islamists and other insurgents represent the will of the majority in Iraq?

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On 
Behalf Of John McCreery
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 6:15 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Text of bin Laden Tape

Hi, Lawrence. Good to see you here.

I'll even agree that we need to oppose those who want to conquer us.
Problem No. 1 is that, at this point, the evidence is all on the side
of we want to conquer them and not vice versa. We proclaim our good
intentions, but, hey, so do they. They say that they will attack us
until we are off what they see as their turf. They commit terrorist
acts (which I in no way condone) to demonstrate their seriousness;
but, when push comes to shove, we are the ones with armies invading
and occupying other countries.

What was it Christ said? The bit about the beam in one's own eye
before the mote in the other guys? Not to mention turning the cheek
and loving them that hate you?

John
John McCreery
The Word Works, Ltd.
55-13-202 Miyagaya, Nishi-ku
Yokohama 220-0006, JAPAN
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