[pure-silver] Re: New color head "discoveries"
- From: DarkroomMagic <info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: PureSilverNew <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:37:43 +0100
You are right, but no matter what your negative looks like, it will not
change the paper contrast. You need to change the paper contrast to fit your
negative, or You need to change the negative contrast to fit your paper.
Regards
Ralph W. Lambrecht
On 1/14/05 1:32 AM, "Rob Champagne" <app@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> At 14/01/2005 01:06 +0100, you wrote:
>> Rob
>>
>> Print densities are generated by exposure, and for that, you need to project
>> nothing but light. However, to generate a paper characteristics curve, you
>> need controlled incremental light exposures. A step wedge does a good job at
>> that. Having 'no negative' could do the same thing, if you find a way to
>> control the exposure otherwise.
>
> a step wedge is just a fancy name for a negative with known densities.
> the definition of what paper contrast is and how that is expressed in
> mathematical notation is irrelevant to me as a printer.
> The very simple concept is that a negative with a greater contrast range than
> the paper will accept can be brought back into range by recreating the
> negative with a shorter density range achieved through less development. i.e.
> negative density range is variable which can be used to control print contrast
> (not paper contrast). Equally negative development can be extended to
> increase print contrast.
> Sometimes its just not possible to see the wood for the trees. Knowing what
> the paper contrast is or could be will not improve my prints. knowing how to
> control the print contrast will.
>
>
>> There is no need to have negatives to create paper curves, but there is a
>> need to have controlled exposure, which calibrated negatives can be used
>> for. Since there is no need to have a negative, negative development can not
>> play a role in paper contrast.
>>
>> Of course, you can use negative development to make the negative density
>> range fit the paper exposure range. Nevertheless, paper contrast is a paper
>> characteristic and has nothing to do with negative development.
>>
>> You can use any film, any developer, any development time or temperature. As
>> long as you create a step wedge from it that has incremental log densities
>> of 0.1 or 0.15, like the ones from Stouffer, they will all report the same
>> paper contrast as long as paper development is consistent.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Ralph W. Lambrecht
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 1/14/05 12:16 AM, "Rob Champagne" <app@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> And how how are you going to generate a paper curve without projecting
>>> something onto it so that it generates measurable print densities.
>>>
>>> robc
>>> At 14/01/2005 00:04 +0100, you wrote:
>>>> Hang on a second!
>>>> Yes, it is true, you can get a true grade 5 from color heads on many
>>>> papers.
>>>> But, negative development has nothing to do with that. Paper contrast is
>>>> measured as a log exposure range of the paper. This is independent of the
>>>> negative, and consequently, not related to negative development.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ralph W. Lambrecht
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 1/13/05 11:46 PM, "Rob Champagne" <app@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I think we agree on this. My point was merely to dispell the myth that it
>>>>> is
>>>>> not possible to get a true G5 with dichroic filtration and that with
>>>>> suitable
>>>>> neg development it is possible. Having done this if you then use an ilford
>>>>> MG
>>>>> filter G5 the resulting print contrast would be G5+
>>>>>
>>>>> robc
>>>>>
>>>>> At 13/01/2005 14:01 -0800, you wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Rob Champagne" <app@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <pure-silver@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:56 AM
>>>>>> Subject: [pure-silver] Re: New color head "discoveries"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> big snip
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The filters of a color head will not give you the full
>>>>>>>> range of contrast available from VC paper with the use of
>>>>>>>> dedicated filters. They should give you a couple contrast
>>>>>>>> grades on either side of "normal" but filters should be
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> to obtain the maximum and minimum contrast values.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> big snip
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> Richard Knoppow
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder whether my observation is true for other dichroic
>>>>>>> filter head enlargers.
>>>>>>> The Ilford Y+M figures for grade 2 on my Durst CLS501 head
>>>>>>> enlarger give approx an ISO grade 1 result on paper.
>>>>>>> It occurs to me that because dichroic filtration does not
>>>>>>> seem to give as much contrast as filter sets, and because
>>>>>>> most new enlargers have dichroic heads, that Ilford, and
>>>>>>> maybe other manufacturers, use this to its advantage in
>>>>>>> terms of film speed.
>>>>>>> To get a true ISO grade 2 using ilfords G2 Y+M figures for
>>>>>>> my enlarger I have to give the negative more development
>>>>>>> which in turn gives allows a faster film speed.
>>>>>>> So what I'm speculating here is that modern film speeds
>>>>>>> may be tailored by the manufacturers to suit printing on
>>>>>>> dichroic heads with Y+M filtration.
>>>>>>> It should be noted that by using increased development of
>>>>>>> the negative the overall contrast obtainable from a
>>>>>>> dichroic is not far short of a true G5 and if you take neg
>>>>>>> development far enough then a true G5 is obtainable from a
>>>>>>> dichroic head.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It all depends on what you are tailoring your development
>>>>>>> to. Do it to 0 filtration and your negs will be too soft
>>>>>>> for G5 on dichroic settings. Do it to G2 Y+M settings of
>>>>>>> your dichroic head and you will get faster film speed and
>>>>>>> availability of higher contrast in your print.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What are the other conditions of the comparison? Are the
>>>>>> filters being used in the same enlarger or a different
>>>>>> enlarger? What I am trying to get at is that if the filters
>>>>>> are being used in a condenser enlarger the difference in
>>>>>> contrast will be due to that. Color heads are very diffuse
>>>>>> sources. The type of light makes little or no difference to
>>>>>> the dye images of color but will change the silver image
>>>>>> film about one paper grade.
>>>>>> If the settings of the color head re right for the paper
>>>>>> it should exactly duplicate the contrast of a filter for
>>>>>> that grade. The limitation of the color head is that it may
>>>>>> not be able to reach the extremes of the contrast range of
>>>>>> the paper. This is normally of little consequence.
>>>>>> Since ISO film speed is measured at a fixed contrast
>>>>>> (about right for diffusion printing) a change in contrast
>>>>>> will result in a change of effective speed. changing the
>>>>>> contrast up or down about one paper grade will result in a
>>>>>> change in film speed of around 3/4 stop up or down. Changing
>>>>>> either film conrast or paper contrast should have exactly
>>>>>> the same effect on the print.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> Richard Knoppow
>>>>>> Los Angeles, CA, USA
>>>>>> dickburk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>
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