[projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
- From: Chris Neilson <crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:30:06 +1200
Hmmm interesting, Ive always read that as A or B or C (ie if you can
cast Strength theres no way you can die regardless of your EP)
specifically because they all say to add "to the number picked". It
seems a bit weird to me that you can cast a spell thats stated to
"greatly increase [your] physical strength" and still not be strong
enough to survive.
Maybe its my programming background but I read the statements as
(assuming x is the number you pick):
total = x
if A then total = x + 2
if B then total = x - 1
if C then total = x + 5
All programming languages Ive ever seen this will mean that if condition
C and either or A or B apply, total will be (x + 5)
compared to say 16tlov/sect171 (see below):
total = x
if A then total = x + 2
if B then total = total + 1
if C then total = total + 1
if D then total = total + 1
basically I assumed "the number picked" and "the total" were two
different variables.
Compare your section (16tlov/sect246) with the following:
05sots/sect23 - Lost the use of one arm "deduct 3 points from the number
you have picked.", Hunting "add 2 points to your total."
07cd/sect85 - Generically "pick a number ... and add 2", Huntsmastery +
Primate "deduct 2 from this total figure".
12tmod/sect324 - missile bonuses "add any missile bonuses", Huntsmastery
+ Archmaster "add an additional 3 points to the total"
12tmod/sect92 - Invisibilty "add 3 to the number you have picked.",
Mentora "add another 2 points."
16tlov/sect171 - Assimilance "add 2 to the number you have picked.",
Grand Pathmanship "add 1 [to the total].", Telegnosis "add 1 [to the
total].", Kai mastery above KGD "Also ... add 1 [to the total]".
16tlov/sect143 - Kai-alchemy/Kai-screen/Assimilance "add 2 to the number
you have picked", "Also ... add 1 [to the total]; ... deduct 3 [to the
total]; ... add 1 [to the total]."
20tcon/sect57 - Assimilance "add 2 to the number you have picked", GH/GP
"add 1 [to the total]", Kai Mastery beyond KGG "Also ... add a further 1
[to the total]"
05sots/sect282 - Hunting/Camoflage "add 2 to the number you have
picked.", Kai rank of Warmarn "add 3 [to the total]."
10tdot/sect128 - dagger/quarter staff "deduct 3 from the number you have
picked.", axe/mace, "add 1 to the number [you have picked].",
Huntsmastery "add 2 to the number [you have picked]." (I assume
Hunstmastery allows you to accurately hit the link regardless of what
weapon you are using - weird?)
11tpot/sect244 - Rope "add 1 to the number you have picked.",
Huntsmastery + Primate "add 3 [to the total]."
12tmod/sect86 - Invisibility "add 2 to the number you have picked.",
Huntsmastery + Primate "add 3 [to the total]."
21votm/sect260 - Grand Huntsmastery "add 1 to the number you have
picked.", EP >= 20 "add 1 [to the total].", EP <= 15 "deduct 1 [from the
total]"
21votm/sect345 - GW-with bow "add 3 to the number you have picked.", EP
<= 10 "deduct 2 [from the total]."
OK, this is taking too long, but there are numerous other references to
modifying RNT results I found (and a whole heap I didnt bother listing):
21votm/sect136
21votm/sect98
21votm/sect337
22tbos/sect227
22tbos/sect85
22tbos/sect55
22tbos/sect63
23mh/sect100
23mh/sect204
23mh/sect175
23mh/sect70
23mh/sect40
23mh/sect76
24rw/sect178
24rw/sect197
24rw/sect258
24rw/sect145
24rw/sect339
24rw/sect320
24rw/sect294
24rw/sect135
14tcok/sect277
14tcok/sect164
14tcok/sect136
at which point I basically gave up analyzing them because by far the
common trend is to say:
If you have $x1 add/deduct $y1 to/from the number picked. If you have
$x2 add $y2. [If you have $x3 add $y3. etc etc]
This, to me, definitely implies the bonuses stack. Since in the few
cases that deviate from this the phrase "add x" is usually prefaced with
"also" or say "add ... to the total" or something else that implies
stacking.
Some deviations to this style:
21votm/sect51
04tcod/sect43
05sots/sect239 - "If you possess the Kai Disciplines of Hunting,
Tracking and Camouflage, add 2 to the number you have picked. If you
have reached the Kai rank of Guardian, add 3 to the number."
06tkot/sect142 - "If you have the Magnakai Discipline of Nexus or
Divination, deduct 2 from the number you have picked. If you possess a
shield, deduct 3 from the number you have picked." ie use
Nexus/Divination OR use a shield.
21votm/sect126
16tlov/sect246
Since they were in the minority, I figured they were special cases
(again my logic is why deviate from the standard phrasing system that
works unless you intended to do so purposely? - maybe the author just
wanted to spice up the text, or maybe they just got lost in the editing
process).
In the case of 06tkot/sect142 I guess technically you could argue that
you could use Nexus/Divination AND the shield simultaneously, so both
bonuses should apply (maybe you partially deflect it with telekinesis
enough for it to hit the shield and not you).
Alternatively, maybe the phrase "add x to the number picked" is
analogous to "add x to the total" and only I seem to think the use of
different words implies you should do something differently - even if it
seems counter-intuitive (after all, rules are rules - youre allowed to
bend/ignore/replace them if it makes sense to you but either way youre
not conforming to them). Ambiguous rules (ie if you cant point to a
section in the rules that says one way or the other how to deal with the
situation), should be pointed out with the most reasonable
interpretation(s) suggested. Maybe these ~6 sections should have a
footnote like "it seems reasonable that all bonuses whose condition(s)
have been met should be totalled"?
Even if "to the number picked" and "to the total" do mean the same
thing. I dont think its right to assume that everyone will read a
section worded differently from the majority (with no
clarification/footnote) and think like you do ie "this is obvious it
should be treated like the more commonly seen, differently worded
section".
To me, this implies that one or more of the following applies:
a) you didnt read the section's instructions (i.e. rules) carefully
enough and thought it was like ever other case
b) you're making a decision on how to interpret unclear instructions
based on knowledge of other rules
c) you think there is a mistake (typo) in the instructions
Basically, if you get someone who has never played a LW book before they
should be able to read the instructions given in that one section (or
refer back to the rules section or a Newsletter for clarification) and
know exactly what to do. If there is any room for confusion there should
be a footnote/clarification.
Anyway, Ive digressed (again). The issue I was originally trying to
address is:
I don’t see why adding x “to the the number picked” precludes also
cumulatively adding other X’s to the number picked as well!
And the short answer is that there is no rule that states bonuses should
stack by default, in fact the rules explicitly tell you how to deal with
the bonuses from WS/WM and mindblast/psi-surge when used simultaneously.
Theres no reason to assume that other bonuses stack by default. Its not
that cumulatively adding the bonuses to the number picked is wrong, its
just that its not covered in the rules and so you have to take the
section's instructions at face value. Face value says you add the bonus
to the number picked, not to the total. It does NOT say "you may also
the second bonus to the number picked". If the section isnt specifically
saying you should add them together, why would you add them together?
On Tue, 2011-06-28 at 12:40 +0000, John TFS wrote:
> Then, as if from nowhere, a raging whirlwind arises in mid-air, at the
> centre of where the arch stood. This whirling vortex quickly builds in
> power until it is sucking everything into its spinning black core.
> Screaming acolytes tumble past and disappear into its maw as you
> desperately hang on to the dais to stop yourself from being sucked to
> your doom.
>
> Pick a number from the Random Number Table.
>
> If your current ENDURANCE points score is 14 or higher, add 2 to the
> number you picked.
>
> If your current ENDURANCE points score is 13 or lower, deduct 1 from
> the number you picked.
>
> If you possess Kai-alchemy, and have attained the Kai rank of Sun
> Knight, add 5 to the number you picked.
>
> If your total score is now 4 or less, turn to 313.
>
> If it is 5 or more, turn to 350.
>
> It's not in a newsletter, but there's Joe Dever indicating cumulative
> addition/subtraction. In this passage, you first pick a number. If
> you're EP is 13 or less, you subtract 1 from that number. Should you
> happen to have Kai-alchemy, you add 5 to that number. This means that
> you can die if your EP is 13 or less if you pick a 0 even if you have
> Kai-alchemy. Dever is clearly not expecting you to apply only one
> modifier here, he's expecting you to apply all applicable modifiers.
>
> Ultimately, this whole discussion is irrelevant to me because I don't
> both to apply any hidden bonuses during the GM books. Instead, I
> apply +10 to my CS, -1 to my EP and go from there. I also add the
> full bonus of +5 from Grand Weaponmastery. I'm a wild man. Sue me.
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:24:22 +1200
> Subject: [projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
> From: crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx
> To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> basically if person A tells you to pick a number (any number), and
> person B tells you to "add 2 to the number picked" and person C tells
> you to "add 3 to the number picked" then logically you'd have 2
> numbers (x+2 and x+3). you cannot combine the two instructions (into x
> +5) because they specifically say to add to the number picked.
>
>
> If person A tells you to pick another number and person B tells you to
> "add 2 to the total" and person C tells you to "add 3 to the total"
> then you have one number, the total (y+5)
>
>
> the two phrases are telling you to do completely different things.
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 8:23 PM, David Davis <feline1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> I don’t see why adding x “to the the number picked” precludes
> also cumulatively adding other X’s to the number picked as
> well!
>
> cf: there’s loads of bonuses accumulate on your CS and EP all
> the time from multiple disciplines and items.
>
>
>
> where does it say that?
>
>
> WS/WM tells you to "add 3 points" to CS when you have a weapon youve
> mastered
> mindblast/psi-surge tells you to add "4 EXTRA points" to CS and
> specifically states it stacks with WM
> lore circles tell you to add "extra bonus points"
> the sommerswerd tells you to use +10 if you have WS and that it doesnt
> stack with WS
>
>
> all these counter your point/support mine. I cant find any cases that
> back your statement up - not that Ive looked too hard mind you.
>
>
> Im sure there was a note somewhere that said you gained CS each
> Grandmaster level you gained but i cant find that.
>
>
> Interestingly Kai-Surge doesnt say it can be used with GWM, and doesnt
> say "extra points" either :/
> yah for reading the rules too closely again :) Im going to go out on a
> limb here and say that this exception should probably be worded like
> mindblast/psi-surge though (and be used with GWM).
>
>
> (all quotes based off the online versions)
>
>
>
> From: Timothy Pederick
> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 8:14 AM
> To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
>
>
> On 28 June 2011 05:42, Chris Neilson <crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> Not saying I dont agree with you re the bonus
> stacking, but my original
> point was that this was a forth option that had not
> been considered in
> Tim's list. It all depends on whether or not its an
> argument that has
> been "seriously proposed". The point was that nearly
> everyone ASSUMED
> the bonus was cumulative - the rules dont specifically
> state that it is.
>
> I think the fact that "nearly everyone" reads the rules a
> certain way is in fact a very good argument for Project Aon to
> interpret them that way. :-) Consensus is good. So is not
> surprising the readers and provoking them to email us with
> questions or complaints!
>
>
> Compare this to the Silver Bow of Duadon. It is stated
> to "add 3 points
> to your TOTAL whenever you are using a Bow" (06tkot
> sect252) - "total"
> implies cumulative bonus, although the Mentora
> Improved Discipline says
> "add 2 to the NUMBER PICKED" (the "Bows and Arrows"
> Equipment section
> says something similar ie "add 3 to any number that
> you choose") - which
> definitely implies not cumulative.
>
> I think you're reading too much intent into Dever's wording. I
> don't think he was being deliberate in choosing "to your
> total" vs. "to the number picked".
>
>
> On 28 June 2011 09:11, Benjamin I Krefetz
> <krefetz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Maybe someone who feels like grepping the xml files
> can check to confirm, but I believe the only time LW
> throws a Dagger in the Magnakai series is when he
> throws the Dagger of Vashna at Zakhan Kimah, and in
> that case the reader is specifically instructed to add
> 3.
>
> I come up with just two (using a hastily composed grep -i
> "random.*weaponmastery.*dagger"), both in 09tcof. There's the
> one against Kimah, of course (section 239), but also section
> 215 where you throw a dagger at a guard to shut him up. There,
> you get a +4 bonus.
>
>
> Kind of makes you wonder what the Mentora bonus (available no
> sooner than 10tdot) is actually for, especially if it doesn't
> stack with WM-with-Bow...
>
> (Do note that this is only finding cases where you get a bonus
> to a random pick for having [Grand] Weaponmastery. Searching
> for every instance of random picks involving daggers is
> significantly harder...)
>
> --
> Tim Pederick
>
>
>
~~~~~~
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