[projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
- From: Timothy Pederick <pederick@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:32:40 +0800
On 22 June 2011 05:13, Chris Neilson <crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 15:19 +0800, Timothy Pederick wrote:
> > You know, something just occurred to me. The +3 from WM only applies
> > if you choose the Bow as one of your WM weapons. The same goes for
> > GWM, but not for the Mentora bonus! That bonus simply applies to any
> > random number pick with a missile weapon, regardless of what WM
> > weapons you've chosen.
> >
>
> That could also mean that the Mentora bonus was meant to only apply if
> you dont have WM in the bow (ie you get either +2 or +3, but not both).
It could indeed. But I never interpreted it that way, and I don't think
anyone else on this list has interpreted it that way. Our goal is to avoid
having readers say, "Huh? I'm going to bug Project Aon for clarification on
how this should work!" So we only need to consider interpretations that
people have actually come up with while playing; considering possibilities
that no-one actually uses is just borrowing trouble. ;-)
> Either way, the Improved Disciplines section specifically says "As you
> rise through the higher levels of Magnakai training you will ... now
> benefit from improvements to the following *Magnakai Disciplines*" which
> means this bonus specifically applies to Magnakai Weaponmastery. Bonuses
> to WM do NOT automatically apply to GWM - there is nothing in the rules
> to say they do.
>
Okay, let me put it another way. The Mentora bonus doesn't "apply to" WM *or
* GWM. It applies to random number picks with missile weapons. There is no
reason to think that you lose that bonus in the Grand Mastery series.
It *comes from* WM, and (we all seem to agree) it stacks with the
WM-with-Bow bonus, if you have it. So why shouldn't it stack with the
GWM-with-Bow bonus?
Imagine for a moment that the Mentora's improved accuracy with missile
weapons was a benefit of Huntmastery, not WM. Would you then say it stacks
with WM but not with GWM?
> When you are fighting you can either use Magnakai Weaponmastery OR Grand
> Weaponmastery (cf mindshield and psi-screen and kai-screen) you dont use
> both simultaneously. Its like fighting using Kung Fu Panda style and
> Praying Mantis style simultaneously, or (if youre a Fist of the North
> Star fan - Hokuto Shinken and Nanto Seiken).
>
But taking Kai-surge doesn't make Psi-surge go away. At the very least, if a
Mentora gets a total of +5 on bow shots, GWM shouldn't take that away -- the
reader who played through the Magnakai series should be allowed to use their
Mentora +5 instead of the GWM +3.
> I think that this gives a lot of weight to the idea that the Mentora
> > bonus is a "hidden loyalty bonus" that can apply equally to GWM.
>
> Surely your Action Chart looks something like:
>
> [snip]
>
> How exactly can you apply the Mentora bonus to GWM? It obviously applies
> to WM. GWM is a completely different discipline.
>
Because the bonus to random number picks is an "always on" bonus, not a
"choose your preferred" bonus. In fact your comparison with
Psi-surge/Kai-surge is flawed, because it's explicitly stated that you can
only use one psychic attack at a time. There's no such statement applied to
picking random numbers when using a Bow.
Indeed, comparison with any other Discipline is flawed, because in every
other case the superseding Discipline explicitly replaces the earlier one,
and is either as good as/better than it, or lets you pick the earlier one if
you wish. The nearest comparison is in fact Deliverance vs. Curing/Healing.
Deliverance doesn't give you +1 EP per section -- it doesn't give you +any
EP per section -- but nor does it take away that benefit from previous
Disciplines.
On that subject, GWM is not a "completely different discipline". If that
were true, you could use both WM and GWM at the same time, the same way you
can use WM and Kai-surge at the same time (because they *are* "completely
different"). Newsletter #28 says plainly that this isn't allowed. you can't
use both the WM and GWM Combat Skill bonuses at the same time. And I don't
think anybody is arguing that you can use both of their +3 Bow bonuses at
the same time.
In fact I think the *only* permissible stacking of bonuses from one (series
of) Discipline(s), anywhere in the books, is WM-with-Bow +3 and the
Mentora-with-WM +2. Why *shouldn't* you be able to stack Mentora-with-WM
onto GWM-with-Bow?
In other words, my argument boils down to this:
*IF* you can use both the basic WM +3 and the Mentora +2 at the same time,
*THEN* you can use the GWM +3 and the Mentora +2 at the same time.
And again, at the very least, if you can't, then readers should be allowed
to use their (better) Magnakai bonus instead.
--
Tim Pederick
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