[projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
- From: Chris Neilson <crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:03:36 +1200
On Wed, 2011-06-22 at 17:32 +0800, Timothy Pederick wrote:
> On 22 June 2011 05:13, Chris Neilson <crusty.chris@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-06-21 at 15:19 +0800, Timothy Pederick wrote:
> That could also mean that the Mentora bonus was meant to only
> apply if
> you dont have WM in the bow (ie you get either +2 or +3, but
> not both).
>
> It could indeed. But I never interpreted it that way, and I don't
> think anyone else on this list has interpreted it that way. Our goal
> is to avoid having readers say, "Huh? I'm going to bug Project Aon for
> clarification on how this should work!" So we only need to consider
> interpretations that people have actually come up with while playing;
> considering possibilities that no-one actually uses is just borrowing
> trouble. ;-)
>
Neither have I. Throwing it out as another possibility. Agree with you.
> Okay, let me put it another way. The Mentora bonus doesn't "apply to"
> WM or GWM. It applies to random number picks with missile weapons.
> There is no reason to think that you lose that bonus in the Grand
> Mastery series.
>
My stance is that there is no section in the Action Chart for global
bonus that are not "applied to" a Discipline. There IS a section for
Disciplines (with space next to the Discipline for the bonuses that
"apply to" it). In fact the Kai/Magnakai books specifically tell you to
write the bonuses that "apply to" each Discipline when you enter them on
the Action Chart. I assumed that as you unlocked more bonuses you
amended these bonuses.
Admittedly the grandmaster books dont have a section for Kai or Magnakai
disciplines either, but I just copied those sections into the
grandmaster Action Chart as they were when I progressed to the next
series. My point is, at no point in any of the books is there a "notes"
section, or "random bonus" section that I have seen.
If there was a section that allowed you to note down global bonuses, and
these global bonuses were unlocked as you reached a certain Kai level,
then I would agree with your interpretation of the rules (and apply the
bonus when using GWM).
> It comes from WM, and (we all seem to agree) it stacks with the
> WM-with-Bow bonus, if you have it. So why shouldn't it stack with the
> GWM-with-Bow bonus?
Again, because if you look on your (well, my) Action Chart the dice
bonus is next to WM and NOT GWM.
>
> Imagine for a moment that the Mentora's improved accuracy with missile
> weapons was a benefit of Huntmastery, not WM. Would you then say it
> stacks with WM but not with GWM?
>
In that case it would stack with both because you are sourcing the total
bonus from 2 separate Disciplines: Huntsmastery and WM (or HM and GWM).
I dont think there is anything in the rules about not applying bonuses
to the same value (ie +CS, + to die roll etc) from 2 Disciplines at once
unless the skills are "upgraded" versions of each other - you cannot
stack WM CS bonus with GWM CS bonus, Healing bonus doesnt stack with
Curing bonus etc.
The exception would be if the relevant section specifically said only
one Discipline could be used as rules presented in sections trump
standard rules (ie they are "on the spot" rules and only apply in that
particular circumstance).
>
> When you are fighting you can either use Magnakai
> Weaponmastery OR Grand
> Weaponmastery (cf mindshield and psi-screen and kai-screen)
> you dont use
> both simultaneously. Its like fighting using Kung Fu Panda
> style and
> Praying Mantis style simultaneously, or (if youre a Fist of
> the North
> Star fan - Hokuto Shinken and Nanto Seiken).
>
> But taking Kai-surge doesn't make Psi-surge go away.
I didnt say psi-surge went away (in fact I said the opposite). For the
fight in question, you can only use one or the other. the next fight you
are free to use the other if you choose to. You still have both, but can
only use one at a time.
If you learnt kung-fu panda style and praying mantis style fighting you
can use one or the other, but you cannot use both simultaneously
(praying panda style?).
> At the very least, if a Mentora gets a total of +5 on bow shots, GWM
> shouldn't take that away -- the reader who played through the Magnakai
> series should be allowed to use their Mentora +5 instead of the GWM
> +3.
>
Thats exactly what I am saying. The reader should be free to use the
Mentora +5 instead of GWM +3. They CANNOT add the Mentora bonus to GWM
though. Admittedly in most cases it makes no difference as the outcome
is the same (both WM and GWM by default give +3), but there are sections
where GWM gives you more than +3. These cases should not be further
modified by bonuses that "apply to" a different Discipline.
>
> > I think that this gives a lot of weight to the idea that the
> Mentora
> > bonus is a "hidden loyalty bonus" that can apply equally to
> GWM.
>
>
> Surely your Action Chart looks something like:
>
> [snip]
>
> How exactly can you apply the Mentora bonus to GWM? It
> obviously applies
> to WM. GWM is a completely different discipline.
>
> Because the bonus to random number picks is an "always on" bonus, not
> a "choose your preferred" bonus.
If there is a rule somewhere that states its a global "always on" bonus
(vs a "applied to WM" always on bonus), or a section on the Action Chart
that allows for un-applied "always on" bonuses I have missed it.
C.f. Curing. Curing's bonus is "always on". You're allowed to use
Curing's "always on" bonus even though you have Deliverance. The point
is though that its Curing's bonus, the bonus is not moved to/merged with
Deliverance.
> In fact your comparison with Psi-surge/Kai-surge is flawed, because
> it's explicitly stated that you can only use one psychic attack at a
> time. There's no such statement applied to picking random numbers when
> using a Bow.
True. I assumed the general rule was not to apply bonuses from both the
base Discipline and its upgraded form. Is there any bonus that is stated
to stack with that from its related Disciplines?
>
> Indeed, comparison with any other Discipline is flawed, because in
> every other case the superseding Discipline explicitly replaces the
> earlier one,
I dont think the rules say the superseding Discipline replaces the
other. That would imply you cross the old Discipline off your Action
Chart when you add a new one. Ive never crossed any Disciplines off my
Action Chart. They are all there, in the order I gained them.
> and is either as good as/better than it, or lets you pick the earlier
> one if you wish.
You seem to be implying you can have either Curing or Deliverance (or WM
or GWM), but not both at the same time? I havent read any rules that say
that picking a new Discipline means the old one is stricken off the
Action Chart (could be wrong though) or that the bonuses from the old
are shifted to the new Discipline.
> The nearest comparison is in fact Deliverance vs. Curing/Healing.
> Deliverance doesn't give you +1 EP per section -- it doesn't give you
> +any EP per section -- but nor does it take away that benefit from
> previous Disciplines.
So youre saying the new Deliverance doesnt have a bonus from its
predecessor, but you can still use the predecessor's bonus when you use
Curing?
Why cant you do the same for GWM? i.e. if you use WM to shoot the arrow
then you can apply the WM bonuses.
>
> On that subject, GWM is not a "completely different discipline". If
> that were true, you could use both WM and GWM at the same time, the
> same way you can use WM and Kai-surge at the same time (because they
> are "completely different"). Newsletter #28 says plainly that this
> isn't allowed. you can't use both the WM and GWM Combat Skill bonuses
> at the same time. And I don't think anybody is arguing that you can
> use both of their +3 Bow bonuses at the same time.
Hmmm I meant GWM and WM are both listed on your Action Chart, both with
their own bonuses written next to them. Im not advocating that WM and
GWM can be used at the same time. Like you mention, the rules
specifically say you cannot apply WM bonuses when you are using GWM
(which is why Im saying you cant use WM's +to dice when you use GWM).
>
> In fact I think the only permissible stacking of bonuses from one
> (series of) Discipline(s), anywhere in the books, is WM-with-Bow +3
> and the Mentora-with-WM +2. Why shouldn't you be able to stack
> Mentora-with-WM onto GWM-with-Bow?
>
Isnt that like saying why shouldn't you be able to stack +1 EP per
section from Healing onto Curing?
My stance is that you NEVER stack bonuses from related Discipline
families (eg Healing -> Curing -> Deliverance or WS -> WM -> GWM) but
you CAN stack bonuses from unrelated Discipline familes (eg +5 CS from
GWM and +8 CS from Kai-Surge). However, if you have WS, WM and GWM you
can chose to use any ONE of these (and its applicable bonuses) whenever
you fight (or shoot a bow).
> In other words, my argument boils down to this:
> IF you can use both the basic WM +3 and the Mentora +2 at the same
> time,
> THEN you can use the GWM +3 and the Mentora +2 at the same time.
>
I think we are 99% in agreement with each other, except this one point.
You are treating the Mentora bonus as a free-agent (ie not associated
with any Discipline). I believe that bonuses gained from Disciplines are
tied to the use of that discipline (and that you note these bonuses next
to the Discipline on the Action Chart). If you are unable to use the
discipline (eg the section says you HAVE to use GWM) then you cannot use
the bonus. If you are using an "upgraded" version of a Discipline then
you cannot use bonuses from predecessor Disciplines. The bonuses from
predecessor skills do not "merge" into the bonuses of the upgraded
Discipline.
> And again, at the very least, if you can't, then readers should be
> allowed to use their (better) Magnakai bonus instead.
>
Yes. this is what I think too. You *should* be free to choose the better
Magnakai bonus even if you have GWM. The loyalty bonus is that it allows
you freedom to chose one bonus or the other; the loyalty bonus is NOT
that you merge bonuses from predecessor disciplines into upgraded
disciplines.
>
> --
> Tim Pederick
My argument boils down to:
* Write the bonuses gained from Disciplines next to the Discipline on
the Action Chart
* Write the bonuses gained from Special Items next to the Special Item
on the Action Chart
* When you gain new bonuses to Disciplines via Kai levels you modify the
relevant bonus on the Action Chart
* You NEVER replace one Discipline with another
* You NEVER move/merge bonuses from one Discipline to another
* Whenever you have multiple bonuses (regardless of source) that can
apply you stack them, except the following situations:
1) they are the same Discipline family/chain (eg WS -> WM -> GWM)
2) the section specifically prevents it
* You are free to apply any and all bonuses that fit the circumstances
(as long as you conform to the rule above)
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