[lit-ideas] Re: U.N. Special Committee on Palestine
- From: JimKandJulieB@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 21:10:11 EDT
Where would you like for the Jews living in Israel to go, Omar?
Would you welcome them into your country?
Would you suggest they emigrate to various countries with different
languages, cultures, etc. and re-establish their lives there?
Would you suggest they simply be "eliminated".
Where, Omar, would you like to see Jews live. Americans live in America.
The French live in France. Brazilians live in Brazil. The Jews live in
Israel. Perhaps there could be an out-post on the moon set up for them.
Imagine a group of nations or ethnic groups telling you that you and all
your country-fellows need to leave the country you live in and find somewhere
else to live.
What would your reaction be?
Julie Krueger
========Original Message======== Subj: [lit-ideas] Re: U.N. Special
Committee on Palestine Date: 7/27/06 9:20:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time From:
_omarkusto@xxxxxxxxxx (mailto:omarkusto@xxxxxxxxx) To:
_lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx) Sent on:
I haven't got the energy right now to wade through
Lawrence's and Stan's long posts filled with false
historical and factual claims, demagogical speeches
etc. I will try to respond to this since since it
seems like a more intelligent argument, even though
the term "anti-semitism" invoked here indicates some
danger.
Carol is right that many, perhaps most nations, have
been created by some or other form of violence.
However, in Europe, the conquered peoples have in most
cases assimilated with the conquerors rather than
being exterminated or expelled. In France, Italy,
Spain etc. the Romanic languages are still spoken
despite the later conquests by Germanic peoples. Also,
many European nations that spent centuries under
someone's else's rule got their independence
eventually. Think about Ireland, Hungary, Ukraine,
Serbia, Croatia etc. Some non-European nations like
East Timor or Eritrea have also won independence from
those who previously conquered them.
Israel would seem to fall in the category of
settler-states like the US, Canada, Australia etc.
Here the immigrant populations displaced the original
populations either through extermination, expulsion,
keeping them confined etc. Now I recognize that Canada
or Australia exist as states, and I have no plan to
drive the Canadians or Australians into the sea, but I
don't think that the way they were established was
moral. In the case of Canada or Australia the moral
issue doesn't seem to translate into a political issue
at present. In the case of Palestine, it does, and so
many people support the Palestinian cause believing
that it is just.
There are also religious and historical reasons for
Muslims to be especially concerned about the Palestine
issue. (In the case of Europeans, there are also
historical reasons as well as geographical proximity.)
A Palestinian supporter like me does not necessarily
have to be concerned with similar injustices having
been done to others, especially in the more distant
past and where there are no pertinent political claims
being made at present. Someone advocating the Irish
cause in Yeats' day also did not necessarily have to
be concerned with the matter that many other lands
were unfairly subjugated. All this seems to me to be
perfectly reasonable, but you are entitled to think
that it is anti-semitic if you wish.
O.K.
--- Carol Kirschenbaum <carolkir@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Andyrene wrote in response to Stan:
> >Can it be that maybe you don't think someone has
> the right to throw >someone out of their house and
> move in and leave the homeowner >homeless?
> ck: You don't read very widely, apparently. This
> kind of thing happens quite often. Exorbitant taxes
> have forced Native Hawaiians off their beachfront
> property--owned by their ohanas for centuries--on
> Oahu, and currently on Maui. That's one way of
> displacing a people. Loads of examples. Just in
> North America, the US appropriate chunks of Mexico,
> along with Native American lands, after winning
> battles. (And losing some, too.) In Europe,
> countries invaded each other for two millenia. Took
> the land, threw the former inhabitants off, or
> enslaved them. Et cetera. Everywhere on earth, it's
> been the same story: fight, conquer, settle the land
> for yourself, and the losers are lucky if they're
> not killed off.
>
> Why, then, is it so unbearable that Israel keep
> the land it was awarded (a la European tradition)
> and fought for? It makes no sense that there's an
> exception for Israel. It conquered the land. That
> should be enough. But Israelis are Jews, and the
> world has separate rules for Jews. It's called
> anti-Semitism.
>
> Carol
>
>
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