It's an excercise in futility! The only way for an organization to change its culture and mentality in this regard is to rebuild it completely from scratch at the highest levels and not just at the PM or Exec Producer level. In fact, I know of an Exec Producer now who fights constant battles with Account over issues I and others have described. Unfortunately, PMs withing non-IT centric organizations are and will probably always be 2nd class citizens. Short of offing Account people (which won't change anything but will make one feel slightly better), you need to get one or more folks at the Director or VP level who will champion us and our role. Project fuck ups due to the disconnect between Account and PM rarely go through post-mortems. And, when they do, no one is blamed or the appropriate action(s) aren't taken anyway. Until upper management fully understands the evils of having Account completely run the show or the importance of PMs within the org, these issues will continue to plague the industry..or what's left of it. Sorry to sound so negative but I've been doing this stuff for nearly 7 years and little has changed since 1995 despite my constant railings against the machine. --- m o r r y <morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Ok so we all recognize that this is a huge problem in working > in agency's. > Now the big questions is if there's something we can do about > it. One > person working for one company going against the whole AE > establishment is > hardly the answer. But is there anything we as a group could > do to change > the mindset? Perhaps one thing we as the Web Producers/Project > Mangers > Organization could do is to establish "best practices" or some > industy > standards. When WPO was started it was primarily for this > very reason. > Right now there are lots of orgs for designers, for > programmers, for IA's > but there was nothing to speak of for web /digital pm's. > > Thought's anyone? > > Morry > > ===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.arifeldman.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx