Excellent advice. I would add that a professional development team takes the time and effort to absorb good development practices, even outside of a current project. Have a weekly meeting to talk about process... buy lunch for the team and sit and discuss chapters from books like "Rapid Development" or "Extreme Programming". Sound hokey? It's not... it's a free lunch for them and if nothing else over time critical thought processes like Project Scope, Risk Assessment and different development models will all be part of their arsenal. They will learn to think top level with the critical skills to know if they are moving in the right direction at any stage of your project. Also, one of the toughest things to schedule is the wrap-up meeting. It's critical to evaluate completed projects while it is still fresh in the minds of the team. Do not close the job until everyone has had the chance to voice their input on what went right and what went wrong with a project. The client is not allowed at this meeting, though you should have their evaluation in hand to help guide the meeting as well. This is a perfect opportunity to hold people's feet to the fire and reward the heroes. It needs to be constructive and people need to hear criticism... this is a big outlet as well as team-building exercise. -Scott http://promofo.com -----Original Message----- From: webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Keren Solomon Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 7:40 AM To: webproducers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [webproducers] Re: persuading a project manager that formal testing is important??? I've been a project manager (though primarily for websites, not software applications). Part of the problem is salespeople have a strong impetus to reduce a budget (and make the sale) by cutting out things that "feel unnecessary." I'm not just talking about testing and QA. I'm also talking about the upfront analysis (needs definition, customer/business analysis, definition of success metrics) that also determine whether a product will ultimately be well-received by the customer. And customers too -- I can't tell you how many proposals I've seen where everything except the development hours seem to be extraneous. There is almost never enough testing time available in our budget or schedule. It's very frustrating to me as a project manager, because ultimately customers don't remember the amount of money they spent, they remember whether their product works or not. Now, I don't want you to think I'm just blaming the sales team or customers, or whining that project managers never have enough resources. I'm not. There are project managers that don't like to test, and I think Peter is right -- it's because they don't have the experience to understand the value of testing. Here's a suggestion. When your project starts and you have a team kickoff meeting, bring up the subject of testing. At that point, the project schedule is rarely set in stone. Ask (nicely) when testing will take place. Suggest where it should be built into the project plan. Explain how long it will take and what report/technical spec/bug list/other documentation will result from doing the testing. Offer to write the test plan. Offer to include the test plan in the first technical spec that you deliver to the client, so that he/she can review and sign off on it. I'm assuming that you're the developer on the project. If you have a QA resource, sit with him/her early in the project. Figure out what you want to test and the value it serves. Then talk to the project manager together. Frankly, while many QA people used to talk to me about the value of testing, fewer developers would. At the beginning of your project, make a list of project risk factors, and explain how the testing you want to do will reduce some those risk factors. Be as specific as you can, because that gives the project manager a rationale for approving the extra hours in the schedule and budget. Hope this helps. keren -----Original Message----- From: webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:webproducers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Christie Mason Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 6:46 AM To: webproducers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [webproducers] Re: persuading a project manager that formal testing is important??? Any chance you could "sneak" it in by rapid prototyping and calling it "needs analysis"? Christie Mason ----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterV" <peter@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <webproducers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 3:00 AM Subject: [webproducers] Re: persuading a project manager that formal testing is important??? Hi Tia, usually experience is the main factor that makes them see the light. I've had the same problem. The reason PM's don't like testing sometimes is that it eats into their budget/deadlines. You have to convince them it really saves them money/time. The best way I found to explain it is call it "risk management". Explain the risk they run by not testing. Cheers, Peter At 10:48 PM 6/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: >hi everyone! > >i've worked on a number of small commercial software projects where the >project managers treated testing as an afterthought. does anyone know >of a persuasive way to convince a project manager that formal testing >is important? > >tia ________________________________________________________________ __________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ________________________________________________________________ __________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ________________________________________________________________ __________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx __________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx