Heh heh. Sadly enough, it happens on the client-side too just not on such a grand scale because budgets tend to be less of an issue than those marketing folks who demand something to be done by X date. --- Lydia Sugarman <thegoodegg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > Two words...Screaming Media. I have never been so frustrated > with exactly the kind of internal structure you cite and I was > the client, second-hand. The same job (as managing editor) > had all the awful aspects > you also cite in trying to evolve the "corporate" culture. > Their (three words...WeTheShoppers) solution was to fire me > about three weeks before the whole shebang went down the > dot-bomb toilet. > > Come to ACME for a drink tonight and we can trade war stories! > > Lydia > > AKF wrote: > > > You make some valid points but there are times and > > organizational cultures where PM's are emasculated by the > powers > > that be and all of the methodology in the world can't change > the > > situation. > > > > I was a PM at a big ad agency and was in charge of PMing all > > work for one of their biggest clients. Unfortunately for me, > > there were no safeguards in the organization's process to > allow > > me to do my job according to accepted practices. Even so, I > was > > still accountable for everything so it was my ass in the > fryer > > if the project got fucked. > > > > In this particular agency, Account drove everything and I > mean > > EVERYTHING. PM's weren't even introduced into the process > until > > well after a project was already pitched and the contract > > already signed. Often, I wouldn't even know about a project > > until Account dropped a stack of background materials on my > desk > > to inform me about a conference call with the client. > > > > Thus, I often spent just as much time trying to futz with > > schedules and budgets to accomodate things like QA as well > as > > retro-fitting functionality that the project required as I > did > > actually managing the project! > > > > I tried time and time again to change this culture by > insisting > > that I be involved as early as possible in a project's > > life-cycle but to no avail. I was both the victim of a poor > > management structure (with no real internal Champion) that > > resented my prescence and that thought that PMs and other > team > > members were not capable of forward thinking. > > > > Obviously, this might be an extreme example but I'm almost > > positive that it's not an isolated one. > > > > --- Lydia Sugarman <thegoodegg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: > > > > > > I'm reading these successive posts and am really at a > loss. > > > Who is claiming ownership at the very beginning for a > given > > > project? Who is ultimately managing expectations overall? > > > And, what kind of project > > > manager doesn't build in Q&A in a budget and schedule? > > > > > > Oh! I can answer that last one easily. Anyone who claims > the > > > title of project manager but really isn't or else a really > > > crappy project manager. > > > > > > The person who claims original ownership has a > responsibility > > > to communicate with all parties concerned, sales, project > > > management, design, development, programming, in one way > or > > > another. Sales people have to > > > be educated to understand what must be included in any > project > > > for it to be successful and then communicate that to the > > > clients. > > > > > > In cases like this, I'd venture to say that the client is > > > blameless. Clients have to be educated about the process > of > > > producing this product they're contracting for. That > includes > > > making sure they understand > > > the entire process and that Q&A is an integral part of > every > > > project and protects their investment. If it is presented > as > > > such, they will accept it as part of the schedule and > cost. > > > There is a responsibility > > > to manage client expectations. > > > > > > Some of the worst experiences I've had as a client have > been > > > with fragmented sales and account management operations, > e.g. > > > Screaming Media, where the only thing that mattered was > the > > > signature on the contract > > > and the check every month. It's nearly three years and I > am > > > still bad mouthing them and probably always will. It > should > > > not take 8 months to set filters when the client has > supplied > > > everything. But, before > > > that, they should have made sure my boss had a better > > > understanding of how limited their offerings were at the > time > > > and that it really wouldn't work for us. > > > > > > But, ultimately, it is the responsibility of everyone > involved > > > in any given project to do everything s/he can to ensure > > > success. Passing the buck won't do it. And, shoddy > client > > > management won't do it. And, > > > sloppy project management won't do it. And, if you are in > a > > > position where there is no cooperation or concern for the > > > quality of the project, walk away and save your > professional > > > reputation. Minimize the > > > bullshit factor. > > > > > > Lydia Sugarman > > > -- > > > Managing Partner > > > Private Label InterActive > > > "Markets are conversations."(c)Cluetrain Manifesto > > > Intelligent eMail Communications Solutions > > > P: 212.533.3456 > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > > To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in > the > > > subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > > > To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for > popular > > > commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and > > > vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access > the > > > list archive at the website. > > > > > > Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, > > morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > ===== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > http://www.arifeldman.com > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the > subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > > To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for > popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and > vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the > list archive at the website. > > > > Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, > morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > -- > Lydia Sugarman > -- > Managing Partner > Private Label InterActive > "Markets are conversations."(c)Cluetrain Manifesto > Intelligent eMail Communications Solutions > P: 212.533.3456 > > > __________________________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the > subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > > To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular > commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and > vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the > list archive at the website. > > Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ===== ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.arifeldman.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx