AFK, I couldn't agree with you more. I have been a PM and Producer for some 4 = years at three New York firms. My experience mirrors yours in every way. = And the real stinger is, the bigger and more "corporate" the agency is, = the worse it gets. I remember being in meeting at a certain New York Web shop (closely = connected to it's Fortune 500 Ad Agency parent) and telling everyone = that unless the company changed it productions guidelines and procedures = that we would never make any money. A few months ago Fuel North America = merged with several other dying web shops and is still in the red.=20 The bottom line is that until Advertising starts to treat Enterprise = Level Web Development w/ the seriousness that is given software = development, PM and Production w/ have very little say in how the = process works. Ad Agencies are a service oriented business. This is why Account = continues to rule the roost. Just my two cents. Chris -----Original Message----- From: AKF [mailto:outdoorminer2002@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:12 AM To: webproducers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [webproducers] Re: persuading a project manager that formal testing is important??? It's an excercise in futility! The only way for an organization to change its culture and mentality in this regard is to rebuild it completely from scratch at the highest levels and not just at the PM or Exec Producer level. In fact, I know of an Exec Producer now who fights constant battles with Account over issues I and others have described. Unfortunately, PMs withing non-IT centric organizations are and will probably always be 2nd class citizens. Short of offing Account people (which won't change anything but will make one feel slightly better), you need to get one or more folks at the Director or VP level who will champion us and our role. Project fuck ups due to the disconnect between Account and PM rarely go through post-mortems. And, when they do, no one is blamed or the appropriate action(s) aren't taken anyway. Until upper management fully understands the evils of having Account completely run the show or the importance of PMs within the org, these issues will continue to plague the industry..or what's left of it. Sorry to sound so negative but I've been doing this stuff for nearly 7 years and little has changed since 1995 despite my constant railings against the machine. --- m o r r y <morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: >=20 > Ok so we all recognize that this is a huge problem in working > in agency's. > Now the big questions is if there's something we can do about > it. One > person working for one company going against the whole AE > establishment is > hardly the answer. But is there anything we as a group could > do to change > the mindset? Perhaps one thing we as the Web Producers/Project > Mangers > Organization could do is to establish "best practices" or some > industy > standards. When WPO was started it was primarily for this > very reason. > Right now there are lots of orgs for designers, for > programmers, for IA's > but there was nothing to speak of for web /digital pm's. >=20 > Thought's anyone? >=20 > Morry >=20 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D -------------------------------------------------------------------------= http://www.arifeldman.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________________= _ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to = webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands = including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit = www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the = website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, = morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx __________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a blank message with unsubscribe in the subject to webproducers-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To access our webform (instead of sending e-mail) for popular commands including subscribe, unsubscribe, digest, and vacation visit www.WebProducers.org. You can also access the list archive at the website. Questions and comments are welcome just e-mail me, morry@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx