(VICT) Re: Alex- Dog Attack
- From: "DIANNE B. PHELPS AND PRIMROSE" <d.bphelps@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 16:51:52 -0700
Hi, Friends,
I have been reading the books of Patricia B. McConnell, namely, FOR THE LOVE
OF A DOG and have just started THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH. I think the idea
of turning one's self and ones dog away from the offending dog could be a
good move because Dr. Mcconnell indicates that facing a dog straight on and,
in particular, making direct eye contact is seen by the canine as
confrontive. By a person turning themselves sideways and not making direct
eye contact seems to help the situation. With this in mind, turning one's
guide dog in the opposite direction and asking them to lie down may also be
of help. With that in mind, I might well be inclined to work the opposite
direction, cross the street and walk up the other side of the street if
possible just to stay away from the offending beasties.
Those books, while definitely written from a sighted standpoint, are really
fascinating. I think that those of us who work with service dogs might
benefit from having one of these written from a nonvisual standpoint. These,
however, are well writen and very informative for those of us who love our
dogs and love working our dogs.
Dianne and Primrose
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 8:33 AM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Alex- Dog Attack
> Hi, Debi and Everyone,
>
> Debi, I wanted to thank you for your valuable contributions to this forum.
> I greatly appreciate your suggestions on training and management
> questions,
> which are firmly based in positive methods and good science.
>
> Yes, the perspective of people who are blind is a bit different from that
> of
> sighted handlers. But it is always great to have more positive
> possibilities of responses, rather than feeling that we must fall back on
> the old familiar punishment and force-based solutions. I love the
> creativity of your techniques and I think even we who are blind can find
> ways to apply positive, cooperative, non-confrontational techniques to the
> solution of everyday problems.
>
> I know from experience that it is indeed very scarey to hear a barking,
> growling dog coming rushing toward you and your guide, especially when you
> don't know whether the animal is restrained in some way or is loose and
> unsupervised. But I really appreciate your point that there are positive
> measures we can take which may help us get out of the situation unscathed,
> and which may be more effective in averting trouble than more fear or
> force-based measures.
>
> This is what I was aluding to in an earlier post when I said that we can
> teach our dogs and ourselves behaviors which can alter the emotional
> states
> of other beings. You gave the example of teaching our guide dogs to lie
> down and face away from the approaching dog. This posture may signal to
> an
> approaching dog that the service dog is no threat and does not require an
> aggressive display. Also, teaching ourselves to relax, to think about
> tossing distracting, high-value treats, and not to send a message of alarm
> to our own guide as well as to the other dog, is a very effective strategy
> for meeting this sort of challenging situation.
>
> As you said, when the chips are down, we still have all the tools we have
> gathered over the years at our disposal to call upon. But it takes time,
> energy, practice, and repetitions to learn new response patterns and to
> gain
> confidence that these too will work, and perhaps better than the old ways
> and with more lasting good effect on our own psyches and emotional states.
> Building these new response patterns begins with the awareness that the
> possibility exists for us to do so. Thank you, Debi, for opening up these
> possibilities for us, and for giving us real life examples of how positive
> techniques can be applied, even in highly emotionally-charged situations.
>
> Best to All,
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Debi Davis" <scripto@xxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 3:53 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Alex- Dog Attack
>
>
>> Hi Sheila,
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. You are so right
>> that for those without sight, who can't see what is coming, the whole
>> playing field changes. This is why I rarely post, and mostly lurk.
>> I'm mainly here to learn. I don't assume to understand the whole
>> picture of using dog guides when I am sighted, and use a service dog.
>>
>> However, this being a clicker training list, I didn't feel it was too
>> inappropriate to respond with a couple of ideas that are a bit
>> outside the box but might help in particular situations by utilizing
>> the principals of clicker training. I have no idea how guide dogs are
>> trained to handle aggressive attacks by off-leash dogs, but that was
>> not my understanding reading Sandee's post, which addressed obnoxious
>> but relatively harmless off-leash small dogs, and other of
>> indeterminate size exhibiting fence guarding issues.
>>
>> I can certainly sympathize with the situation you have presented: two
>> backyard dogs who routinely get loose due to a faulty fence gate, but
>> thankfully, have not attacked your guide dog. Unfortunately, they did
>> attack another human last week, but does anyone know what may have
>> prompted that attack, or what the humans did when they say the dogs
>> coming at them? Did they practice "be a tree" or did they run
>> screaming? Of course it should never have happened, and I'm certainly
>> not defending the irresponsible owners of the offending dogs. But how
>> the victim responds can also be a factor in what eventually happens.
>>
>> Please notice that I do not sue the words "always" and "never" in my
>> posts, because we are never guaranteed that by using an operant
>> approach to solving problems like these, we'll be successful. But
>> quite often, it is worth at least thinking about. It may be far
>> better in a situation like you described to be more like Judge Judy
>> than Karen Pryor. But, as a clicker trainer, my goal is to first
>> explore all possible ideas for finding a resolution that allows for
>> less ill-feelings between neighbors. If that doesn't work, then yes,
>> I'd bring out the big guns too.
>>
>> Perhaps the "vinegar" you describe of turning the offending dog
>> owners into animal control will help. Do they follow up and examine
>> fenced areas of residential homes to insure the dogs cannot get out?
>> Is the outcome of turning them in likely to insure that you and other
>> neighbors will never be bothered again by the dogs? Perhaps in your
>> community, it would work.
>>
>> But in my community, and others I've lived in, there are already way
>> too many stray dogs to concentrate on, way too many human animal
>> abusers to contend with for animal control to be able to follow up on
>> an inadequate fencing situation unless they have proof that the dogs
>> caused injury. It may result in a civil suit or more to find redress,
>> which can be time consuming, expensive and more than a little
>> stressful. There is also the possibility of vindictiveness on the
>> part of the offending dog owners, something I'd certainly work to
>> avoid.
>>
>> Would OC work in that particular situation? I couldn't begin to
>> guess, but in putting on my lateral thinking cap, I can imagine
>> trying the honey instead of the vinegar first. I am a long-time
>> clicker trainer, and thinking along these lines of how to resolve
>> problems without resorting to going on the defense is as natural to
>> me as breathing. It's also how I was raised by my parents, so it
>> truly is as natural as breathing. But I'm also pretty practical: if
>> it fails, or looks like it won't work--I still have my Judge Judy hat
>> to put on.
>>
>> In keeping peace with neighbors, my first thought would be: Is it be
>> possible to work with the owners and perhaps enlist some seniors or
>> scout members or neighborhood teens to help fix the owner's fence
>> gate and place anti-dig bricks under the gate area, to insure the
>> dogs could not dig their way out?
>>
>> OTOH, there are a great many crack houses in residential areas now,
>> and druggies such as these often have mixed breeds of dogs taught to
>> be extremely aggressive. I don't know if I'd go up against folks like
>> these, but I also don't think I'd want to get on their bad side if I
>> could help it.
>>
>> One friend of mine lives in New York City, uses a service dog, and
>> purposely made friends with the druggies lining the streets in her
>> area, asking them to pet her dog, and also asking them, once they had
>> "made friends" if they would watch out for her. This was over the
>> course of several weeks, and though these were extremely unsavory
>> characters, they came to look forward to greeting this team and
>> acting respectfully, and watching out for their welfare.
>>
>> While I totally agree, Sheila, that there is no cut and dry "musts"
>> and that every situation is different, I still think it's helpful to
>> have as many behavioral tools in our mental toolbox for using in
>> human situations as there are for shaping behavior in dogs, horses
>> and other animals.
>>
>> I apologize if my post seemed to indicate that I would never respond
>> defensively. I certainly did not mean for it to come across that way.
>> I would not carry pepper spray with me if I believed that every
>> situation could be solved by using OC. It's sort of like the old
>> adage, "Trust in God but tie your camel."
>> I like having a strong backup, and would not hesitate to use it
>> should the situation require it. Growling large dogs racing toward me
>> would probably make me go on the defensive very quickly, and clamp my
>> fingers around that bottle of pepper spray.
>>
>> But first, I'd cue my dog into a down position with his head turned
>> away from the oncoming dogs. Then I'd fling high-powered treats out,
>> hoping to give us a chance to move out of the area. But would I ever
>> remove my finger from that spray bottle until I was certain I was out
>> of danger? No! I am not a Pollyanna. I often trust in the power of
>> OC, but "keep my camel tied."
>>
>> My post was to address neighborhood problems with off-leash dogs, not
>> necessarily aggressive dogs who were likely to attack and do bodily
>> harm to me or my service animal.
>>
>> At the corner of our street lives a most beautiful piebald black and
>> white Pit Bull, who often got out of the rickety fence and came
>> bouncing over to meet my dogs. He was totally non-aggressive, but in
>> his adolescence, he was still a large dog with tremendous strength
>> whose playful antics still put my small 10 pound Papillons at risk.
>>
>> I still adored the Pit--he was a honey of a dog, so my choice of
>> approach was to teach the children how to clicker train their dog,
>> and to spend a day helping them do a "scavenger hunt" to find items
>> we could secure the fence gate with, and bury bricks them in the
>> dirt. I used "tag teach," the human equivalent of clicker training,
>> to get them involved with the project and motivated to finish it.
>> It cost me one day of work and $10 of goodies from the dollar store
>> to solve the problem.
>>
>> In the meantime, I was able to introduce the family to an anti-pull
>> harness, so that the children could at least start immediately
>> walking their dog in the community safely. Again, this was not an
>> aggressive dog in any way, but a dog who was raised with kittens,
>> guinea pigs and a small terrier. He was just a totally untrained
>> family pet.
>>
>> Of course I could have called animal control on them, or the police
>> for their dog interfering with a service dog. But my preference was
>> to maintain peace in the neighborhood, and be able to help them to
>> offer their dog a bit of a better life, by finding fun ways to
>> interact with their dog and walk the dog so that the frustration
>> factor of living in a fenced-in yard was reduced for the dog.
>>
>> My point was not to criticize those who choose other solutions, only
>> to add to the discussion by offering a couple of ideas that fit in
>> with clicker training that might, in some situations, work very well.
>> It's just another option to keep in the handler's toolbox, and not
>> meant to be an "always" suggestion.
>>
>> Another poster mentioned how much she hated small dogs, and I wanted
>> to respond with understanding of how irritating un-trained small dogs
>> can be, and acknowledge that small untrained dogs can and do cause
>> mighty harm. But I also would like to ask for some leniency in
>> thinking that all small dogs are untrained and dangerous pests.
>>
>> It was a year ago this month that my long-time service dog Peek, a 10
>> pound Papillon, went to Rainbow Bridge. During his tenure as a
>> service dog, he was awarded the National Service Dog of the Year
>> award, and routinely worked alongside large dogs of every breed, as
>> well as alongside friends using guide dogs.
>> He was dual-trained as a physical therapy dog in a rehab hospital,
>> interacting with cued guidance to help patients recovering from
>> strokes, hip replacements, etc.
>>
>> He retrieved items, rolled large therapy balls, etc. with people of
>> all ages and abilities. In public, he was reliable and silent,
>> maintaining cued behaviors until released from that cue. He spent
>> several years doing demos in schools, at training conferences and
>> civic groups. He may have only been a 10 pound ball of fuzz, but his
>> manners were impeccable, and his help invaluable. He made the bed
>> faster than my larger service dog could ever hope to learn to do, and
>> his diminutive size made it easy for him to transfer laundry from my
>> front loaders into the dryer, or to retrieve really tiny items such
>> as pierced earring backing plates or straight pins. He had been
>> shaped to lift his front lips, pick up tiny items such as these with
>> only his front teeth, and to hold them steady until delivered into my
>> hand.
>>
>> He opened and closed cupboard doors and drawers, and retrieved items
>> I'd drop, including food items. I don't think anyone seeing him at
>> work could have faulted him, even though he was a very
>> untraditional-looking service dog. I was very proud of my tiny
>> partner working in public, and felt he was a great ambassador for the
>> service dog world.
>>
>> Whether large or small dogs exhibiting obnoxious, dangerous or
>> inappropriate responses, it's never right. I appreciate that this is
>> a forum that encourages listmembers to "think outside the box" and
>> explore other possibilities for conflict resolution. When I share my
>> ideas, that's all they are--ideas, which readers are free to think
>> about or delete. I don't pass judgement on those who choose a
>> differing approach, but I do listen, because I never know when a
>> situation where using OC might not work, and I want to have every
>> possible bit of information at my beck and call.
>>
>> I appreciate all the different responses and ideas shared on this
>> very difficult topic. I always find that I can learn from experienced
>> handlers and trainers, even if we have different approaches to
>> training or handling the public. I try hard to judge no one, nor come
>> off as someone who "knows it all." I'll be the first to admit I
>> realize I always have lots more to learn, and that I never know where
>> the next bit of useful information may come from. I will always
>> consider myself a student.
>>
>> Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience, Sheila. You have
>> given me much to think about, and I'm grateful you took the time to
>> respond. I've truly enjoyed your posts about the changes in the San
>> Rafael facility, especially since I have family in neighboring San
>> Anselmo, and often pass by trainers out working the in-training
>> guides on the streets of San Rafael when I'm there visiting with my
>> service dog. I've been very impressed with the trainer's diligence in
>> observing and responding to the dogs-in-training, and to the respect
>> given to well-mannered service dog teams sharing the sidewalks with
>> them.
>>
>> How wonderful to hear more about the clicker integration in that
>> facility.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Debi Davis
>> Las Vegas, NV, USA
>>
>>
>
>
>
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