(VICT) Re: Alex- Dog Attack
- From: Debi Davis <scripto@xxxxxxx>
- To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 12:53:20 -0700
Hi Sheila,
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. You are so right
that for those without sight, who can't see what is coming, the whole
playing field changes. This is why I rarely post, and mostly lurk.
I'm mainly here to learn. I don't assume to understand the whole
picture of using dog guides when I am sighted, and use a service dog.
However, this being a clicker training list, I didn't feel it was too
inappropriate to respond with a couple of ideas that are a bit
outside the box but might help in particular situations by utilizing
the principals of clicker training. I have no idea how guide dogs are
trained to handle aggressive attacks by off-leash dogs, but that was
not my understanding reading Sandee's post, which addressed obnoxious
but relatively harmless off-leash small dogs, and other of
indeterminate size exhibiting fence guarding issues.
I can certainly sympathize with the situation you have presented: two
backyard dogs who routinely get loose due to a faulty fence gate, but
thankfully, have not attacked your guide dog. Unfortunately, they did
attack another human last week, but does anyone know what may have
prompted that attack, or what the humans did when they say the dogs
coming at them? Did they practice "be a tree" or did they run
screaming? Of course it should never have happened, and I'm certainly
not defending the irresponsible owners of the offending dogs. But how
the victim responds can also be a factor in what eventually happens.
Please notice that I do not sue the words "always" and "never" in my
posts, because we are never guaranteed that by using an operant
approach to solving problems like these, we'll be successful. But
quite often, it is worth at least thinking about. It may be far
better in a situation like you described to be more like Judge Judy
than Karen Pryor. But, as a clicker trainer, my goal is to first
explore all possible ideas for finding a resolution that allows for
less ill-feelings between neighbors. If that doesn't work, then yes,
I'd bring out the big guns too.
Perhaps the "vinegar" you describe of turning the offending dog
owners into animal control will help. Do they follow up and examine
fenced areas of residential homes to insure the dogs cannot get out?
Is the outcome of turning them in likely to insure that you and other
neighbors will never be bothered again by the dogs? Perhaps in your
community, it would work.
But in my community, and others I've lived in, there are already way
too many stray dogs to concentrate on, way too many human animal
abusers to contend with for animal control to be able to follow up on
an inadequate fencing situation unless they have proof that the dogs
caused injury. It may result in a civil suit or more to find redress,
which can be time consuming, expensive and more than a little
stressful. There is also the possibility of vindictiveness on the
part of the offending dog owners, something I'd certainly work to
avoid.
Would OC work in that particular situation? I couldn't begin to
guess, but in putting on my lateral thinking cap, I can imagine
trying the honey instead of the vinegar first. I am a long-time
clicker trainer, and thinking along these lines of how to resolve
problems without resorting to going on the defense is as natural to
me as breathing. It's also how I was raised by my parents, so it
truly is as natural as breathing. But I'm also pretty practical: if
it fails, or looks like it won't work--I still have my Judge Judy hat
to put on.
In keeping peace with neighbors, my first thought would be: Is it be
possible to work with the owners and perhaps enlist some seniors or
scout members or neighborhood teens to help fix the owner's fence
gate and place anti-dig bricks under the gate area, to insure the
dogs could not dig their way out?
OTOH, there are a great many crack houses in residential areas now,
and druggies such as these often have mixed breeds of dogs taught to
be extremely aggressive. I don't know if I'd go up against folks like
these, but I also don't think I'd want to get on their bad side if I
could help it.
One friend of mine lives in New York City, uses a service dog, and
purposely made friends with the druggies lining the streets in her
area, asking them to pet her dog, and also asking them, once they had
"made friends" if they would watch out for her. This was over the
course of several weeks, and though these were extremely unsavory
characters, they came to look forward to greeting this team and
acting respectfully, and watching out for their welfare.
While I totally agree, Sheila, that there is no cut and dry "musts"
and that every situation is different, I still think it's helpful to
have as many behavioral tools in our mental toolbox for using in
human situations as there are for shaping behavior in dogs, horses
and other animals.
I apologize if my post seemed to indicate that I would never respond
defensively. I certainly did not mean for it to come across that way.
I would not carry pepper spray with me if I believed that every
situation could be solved by using OC. It's sort of like the old
adage, "Trust in God but tie your camel."
I like having a strong backup, and would not hesitate to use it
should the situation require it. Growling large dogs racing toward me
would probably make me go on the defensive very quickly, and clamp my
fingers around that bottle of pepper spray.
But first, I'd cue my dog into a down position with his head turned
away from the oncoming dogs. Then I'd fling high-powered treats out,
hoping to give us a chance to move out of the area. But would I ever
remove my finger from that spray bottle until I was certain I was out
of danger? No! I am not a Pollyanna. I often trust in the power of
OC, but "keep my camel tied."
My post was to address neighborhood problems with off-leash dogs, not
necessarily aggressive dogs who were likely to attack and do bodily
harm to me or my service animal.
At the corner of our street lives a most beautiful piebald black and
white Pit Bull, who often got out of the rickety fence and came
bouncing over to meet my dogs. He was totally non-aggressive, but in
his adolescence, he was still a large dog with tremendous strength
whose playful antics still put my small 10 pound Papillons at risk.
I still adored the Pit--he was a honey of a dog, so my choice of
approach was to teach the children how to clicker train their dog,
and to spend a day helping them do a "scavenger hunt" to find items
we could secure the fence gate with, and bury bricks them in the
dirt. I used "tag teach," the human equivalent of clicker training,
to get them involved with the project and motivated to finish it.
It cost me one day of work and $10 of goodies from the dollar store
to solve the problem.
In the meantime, I was able to introduce the family to an anti-pull
harness, so that the children could at least start immediately
walking their dog in the community safely. Again, this was not an
aggressive dog in any way, but a dog who was raised with kittens,
guinea pigs and a small terrier. He was just a totally untrained
family pet.
Of course I could have called animal control on them, or the police
for their dog interfering with a service dog. But my preference was
to maintain peace in the neighborhood, and be able to help them to
offer their dog a bit of a better life, by finding fun ways to
interact with their dog and walk the dog so that the frustration
factor of living in a fenced-in yard was reduced for the dog.
My point was not to criticize those who choose other solutions, only
to add to the discussion by offering a couple of ideas that fit in
with clicker training that might, in some situations, work very well.
It's just another option to keep in the handler's toolbox, and not
meant to be an "always" suggestion.
Another poster mentioned how much she hated small dogs, and I wanted
to respond with understanding of how irritating un-trained small dogs
can be, and acknowledge that small untrained dogs can and do cause
mighty harm. But I also would like to ask for some leniency in
thinking that all small dogs are untrained and dangerous pests.
It was a year ago this month that my long-time service dog Peek, a 10
pound Papillon, went to Rainbow Bridge. During his tenure as a
service dog, he was awarded the National Service Dog of the Year
award, and routinely worked alongside large dogs of every breed, as
well as alongside friends using guide dogs.
He was dual-trained as a physical therapy dog in a rehab hospital,
interacting with cued guidance to help patients recovering from
strokes, hip replacements, etc.
He retrieved items, rolled large therapy balls, etc. with people of
all ages and abilities. In public, he was reliable and silent,
maintaining cued behaviors until released from that cue. He spent
several years doing demos in schools, at training conferences and
civic groups. He may have only been a 10 pound ball of fuzz, but his
manners were impeccable, and his help invaluable. He made the bed
faster than my larger service dog could ever hope to learn to do, and
his diminutive size made it easy for him to transfer laundry from my
front loaders into the dryer, or to retrieve really tiny items such
as pierced earring backing plates or straight pins. He had been
shaped to lift his front lips, pick up tiny items such as these with
only his front teeth, and to hold them steady until delivered into my
hand.
He opened and closed cupboard doors and drawers, and retrieved items
I'd drop, including food items. I don't think anyone seeing him at
work could have faulted him, even though he was a very
untraditional-looking service dog. I was very proud of my tiny
partner working in public, and felt he was a great ambassador for the
service dog world.
Whether large or small dogs exhibiting obnoxious, dangerous or
inappropriate responses, it's never right. I appreciate that this is
a forum that encourages listmembers to "think outside the box" and
explore other possibilities for conflict resolution. When I share my
ideas, that's all they are--ideas, which readers are free to think
about or delete. I don't pass judgement on those who choose a
differing approach, but I do listen, because I never know when a
situation where using OC might not work, and I want to have every
possible bit of information at my beck and call.
I appreciate all the different responses and ideas shared on this
very difficult topic. I always find that I can learn from experienced
handlers and trainers, even if we have different approaches to
training or handling the public. I try hard to judge no one, nor come
off as someone who "knows it all." I'll be the first to admit I
realize I always have lots more to learn, and that I never know where
the next bit of useful information may come from. I will always
consider myself a student.
Thank you for sharing your opinion and experience, Sheila. You have
given me much to think about, and I'm grateful you took the time to
respond. I've truly enjoyed your posts about the changes in the San
Rafael facility, especially since I have family in neighboring San
Anselmo, and often pass by trainers out working the in-training
guides on the streets of San Rafael when I'm there visiting with my
service dog. I've been very impressed with the trainer's diligence in
observing and responding to the dogs-in-training, and to the respect
given to well-mannered service dog teams sharing the sidewalks with
them.
How wonderful to hear more about the clicker integration in that facility.
Respectfully,
Debi Davis
Las Vegas, NV, USA
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