[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: Russell Solowoniuk <rsolowoniuk@xxxxxxx>
- To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 21:08:01 -0600
Hey Ricardo,
I've been using a Mac for almost three years, and, I have been doing exactly as
you described in iTunes, VO right arrow 5 or 6 times to get to the Sources
table, interacting, etc. etc.! LOL
I learn something new about the Mac almost every day from this mailing list!
Thank you once again for some very valuable information that will save me a lot
of time in the future! :)
Russell
On 2012-06-26, at 10:53 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Its true. But on the other hand, I often find that people will interact when
> its totally unnecessary. Especially those new to the Mac. For example,
> someone told me that they hated using iTunes because they had to interact too
> much. I replied, show me how you use iTunes. First, they VO right arrowed
> like 6 times until they got to the sources table when they could have press
> VO command T and jumped right to it. Then, they interacted with sources to
> navigate to the music playlist. I said, you know you don't have to interact
> with the sources table to do that? They didn't believe me so, I said, stop
> interacting, and just press the letter M. It brought them directly to the
> music playlist. Same thing with the songs table. Who ever instructed them,
> said they need to interact in order to navigate and play music. This is
> totally false.
>
> My point is, the concept of interacting is a tough nut to crack at first.
> Some just interact with everything, giving themselves a type of sensory
> overload. lol.
>
> Ricardo Walker
> ricardo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Twitter:@apple2thecore
> www.appletothecore.info
>
> On Jun 26, 2012, at 12:10 PM, Ian Edwards <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> I echo the importance of interacting. It's something I had no concept of
>> before Mac, as it's not referred to in casual conversation with sighted Mac
>> users. I think it's much more intuitive to a sighted person. Knowing that
>> the thing you're working on, say a document, may sound the same under
>> voiceover when you're interacting and when you're not, and that you can be
>> taken out of interacting without you're doing it, and that voiceover
>> commands do different things when you're not interacting was an important
>> lesson to learn.
>>
>> It sounds scarier than it is. It really means forming the habit of
>> interacting each time you come back to a document body. It has started to
>> become second-nature.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ian
>>
>> On 2012-06-26, at 12:21 AM, David Chittenden wrote:
>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As far as I am concerned, 2 and 3 are yes. I use the trackpad and trackpad
>>> commander all the time on my MacBook Air. I am tired of learning esoteric
>>> keyboard commands, so I prefer learning touchpad gestures whenever
>>> possible. Besides, we continue moving away from full keyboards.
>>>
>>> One of the best pieces of advice I received whilst transitioning was to
>>> understand interacting. Each time you interact, you tighten your focus or
>>> view in to a specific area or section. You can interact multiple times,
>>> taking you deeper in to layers, so it is not the same as forms mode.
>>>
>>> Next is developing basic understanding around control, option, and command.
>>> They do not translate straight across from windows. Command is basically
>>> commanding the computer. Control, I believe, is more about modifying
>>> behaviors. I do not currently remember for option because I seldom use
>>> option-based commands.
>>> Finally, VO (control and option keys pressed together), the VO command
>>> signifier (same as insert or caps lock for Jaws and System Access), along
>>> with k, puts you in to keyboard help. This mode announces the functions of
>>> keys and VO key combinations. VO h h (hold down VO and press h twice),
>>> places you in to the lists of VO commands. I wish there was a similar list
>>> for standard Mac commands.
>>>
>>>
>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>>> Email: dchittenden@xxxxxxxxx
>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 26/06/2012, at 16:55, "Carol Pearson" <carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John, thanks so much for this. It's given me such an insight into Mac's
>>>> capabilities and, to be honest, I'm currently rather mind boggled but
>>>> greatly excited!
>>>>
>>>> I realise now that I need to prepare for going to the MAC store in order
>>>> that I can fully use my time/visits there in the best way possible.
>>>>
>>>> Forgive some of the elementary questions in preparation for this phase:
>>>>
>>>> 1) I know how to turn VO on but what else do I really need to get to
>>>> grips with as far as VoiceOver is concerned?
>>>>
>>>> 2) Is a track pad or mouse going to be useful to me?
>>>>
>>>> 3) Will Apple Care enable me to be fully supported by an Apple rep from
>>>> my home? (I mean, could a rep take control of my Mac to perform any
>>>> required tasks I have not mastered?)
>>>>
>>>> 4) I'd like to be made aware of any shortcomings (making work
>>>> difficult) in VoiceOver, as it is at present. I would need to get to
>>>> grips with spread sheets and convert some from Windows quite quickly. Is
>>>> this going to be difficult for me?
>>>>
>>>> 5) Finally, Am I safe to purchase any air printer now (as I need a new
>>>> one quite urgently) and expect it to work with the Mac, or should I be
>>>> looking for a list of recommended printers?
>>>>
>>>> I do hope you all don't mind these questions. Please feel free to take
>>>> them off list with me if you wish.
>>>>
>>>> Carol P - Thanking you all for support in my journey!
>>>>
>>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>>> From: "John Panarese" <jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 10:28 PM
>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the
>>>> mac a option?
>>>>
>>>>> Keith posted this link a few weeks ago.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.apple.com/osx/whats-new/features.html
>>>>>
>>>>> The release date is not been announced, though July
>>>>> is said to be the month. I read somewhere July 18, but
>>>>> this is NOT confirmed and rumor only.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>> Director
>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>
>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX LION
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>
>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 5:01 PM, "Carol Pearson"
>>>>> <carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Any ideas when Mountain Lion should arrive and does
>>>>>> anyone have direct URLs for good reading about him!
>>>>>> <Smiles>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carol P
>>>>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>>>>> From: "John Panarese" <jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> To: <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 8:16 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> mac a option?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am
>>>>>>> not disagreeing with some of his points. I am
>>>>>>> disagreeing with his conclusions and inferences.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon.
>>>>>>> Let's wait to see what improvements will be found for
>>>>>>> VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated, strong rumors point
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> an update to iWorks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John Panarese
>>>>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura
>>>>>>> <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Out of interest, what in the original message is
>>>>>>>> preventable with training? I disagree with the paid
>>>>>>>> alternative to VoiceOver, but aren't most of the
>>>>>>>> points William raises valid? Tables in Pages are
>>>>>>>> often difficult, and, at the moment, getting to
>>>>>>>> third party status bar items is complicated. Pages
>>>>>>>> in general seems to me to have some reasonably big
>>>>>>>> accessibility bugs--I.E. the inability to read track
>>>>>>>> changes or comments.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just
>>>>>>>> curious, because the only part of the message I'd
>>>>>>>> question is the part about not being able to search
>>>>>>>> for form fields in tables on webpages. If there are
>>>>>>>> straightforward methods for achieving some of the
>>>>>>>> other things he finds difficult, I'd love to hear
>>>>>>>> about them, too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I really think you need proper training because the
>>>>>>>>> statements you are making just are not true. As I've
>>>>>>>>> stated before there are blind people who work on
>>>>>>>>> accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and I
>>>>>>>>> promise you with all my heart proper training
>>>>>>>>> prevents piss poor performance and this is surely a
>>>>>>>>> matter of not having the proper training. I will
>>>>>>>>> leave this alone because a person convinced against
>>>>>>>>> their will is of the same opinion still. On Jun 25,
>>>>>>>>> 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
>>>>>>>>> <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>> After working for more than 3 years with the mac ,
>>>>>>>>>> it's my personal opinionthat more basic programs
>>>>>>>>>> are accessible on windows then on the mac platform.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I find it more stable to work on the mac because of
>>>>>>>>>> the integration of the screenreader voiceover with
>>>>>>>>>> the osx.
>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us
>>>>>>>>>> by the trackpad and the function-keys with the
>>>>>>>>>> spoken values.
>>>>>>>>>> And of course the flexible way we can install ,
>>>>>>>>>> manage the system with voiceover support
>>>>>>>>>> everywhere.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with
>>>>>>>>>> voiceover while this is possible on windows, office
>>>>>>>>>> programs like microsoft office and also iWork's
>>>>>>>>>> aren't fully accessible with lay-out tasks, in my
>>>>>>>>>> opinion there are several usability issues with the
>>>>>>>>>> browsers on the mac, some ellements of the os ,
>>>>>>>>>> like Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages,
>>>>>>>>>> are very difficult to navigate e.g. you can't
>>>>>>>>>> search for edit-fields on websites while they are
>>>>>>>>>> in a table and in pages, you can't work with
>>>>>>>>>> tables on a comfortable way.
>>>>>>>>>> the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a
>>>>>>>>>> normal way with voiceover...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that
>>>>>>>>>> makes program's accessible with scripts (like
>>>>>>>>>> screen readers on windows do), should be very
>>>>>>>>>> welcome I think.
>>>>>>>>>> With this kind of optional screenreader, blind
>>>>>>>>>> users should be able to use all the equivalents on
>>>>>>>>>> the mac of their windows favorites. Perhaps it
>>>>>>>>>> should push apple to make their screenreader
>>>>>>>>>> better on a faster speed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
>>>>>>>>>> I see 2 reasons for this:
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the
>>>>>>>>>> screenreader of apple should have more
>>>>>>>>>> possibilities to integrate with the os then the
>>>>>>>>>> external screenreader.
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a
>>>>>>>>>> screenreader for the mac while there is one built
>>>>>>>>>> in. If it should be the second reason, any people
>>>>>>>>>> with accessibility frustrations on the mac , should
>>>>>>>>>> communicate this to other companies like gw micro,
>>>>>>>>>> freedom scientific, baum...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any opinions about this meanings should be very
>>>>>>>>>> welcome.
>>>>>>>>>> kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>> William Windels>
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>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.icanworkthisthing.com
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