[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: Keith Reedy <keithreedy@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2012 20:46:34 -0400
Well said and thank you.
Keith Reedy
keithreedy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jun 25, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Ronald Johnson wrote:
> Hi list!
>
> It's been quite a while since I last posted, but I just felt compelled
> to offer my two cent's worth to this discussion.
>
> First off, let me say that, in point of fact, we do have a pay-for
> screen reader in the form of VoiceOver. If you think about it, in the past,
> when we shelled out our $129.99 for Tiger and Leopard, then, more recently,
> our $29.99 for Snow Leopard and Lion, we were, in fact, paying for VoiceOver
> - just not shelling out between $600 and $1200 for a add-on program complete
> with registration keys, authorizations, etc. The difference here is that the
> entire Mac user community of several million, helps Apple fund R&D for
> VoiceOver with every copy of OS X they purchase. Since VO is integrated, yet
> purely optional, no sighted person ever need know, or care, that it's there,
> until they have need for it, as it's not something which is in their way, in
> their face, etc.
>
> Secondly, while it's true there are more accessible apps on the Windows
> platform, than on the Mac, this only stands to reason as JFW's been around
> now for what, about 20 years, give or take? How long has VO been around -
> about 7 years? 8, if you count the Spoken Interface Preview project. Quite
> frankly, since Tiger was released on April 29th, 2005, I've been pleasantly
> surprised at the number of partially-accessible, to fully-accessible apps
> which have become available for the Mac. I've not found much I can't do with
> my Mac, aside from configuring Dropbox, and the occasional thing like that.
> Remember, JFW, Window Eyes, et al, cater to the app, while VoiceOver puts the
> burden on the developer to make their apps accessible. Also, pretty much
> everything in Apple's lineup is accessible. Can any other companies say that
> with a straight face?
>
> Thirdly, if memory serves me correctly, VoiceOver has been able to be
> controlled via Applescript, since Snow Leopard, for sure. I do recall that
> there is a member of this list who was working on a system which combined
> Applescript, VO, and an App, called "KwikKeys", to make apps more accessible.
> In other words, VO is scriptable, in it's own way, same as JFW and
> Window-Eyes. Perhaps people should look to this capability, before rushing
> to the conclusion that we need a "Pay-for" screen reader? Seems to me we've
> been given many marvelous tools by Apple to make using a Mac easier and more
> rewarding. Guys like you, William, can learn everything you can about VO and
> how to make efficient use of it, learn applescript, and design a suite of VO
> scripts which would make some apps more VO-friendly than they currently are.
> You could even sell your suite of scripts on the app store? Just a thought…
>
> Finally, might a "Pay-for" screen reader be beneficial? Perhaps, as
> it'd give Apple competition inside the Mac community. Should it happen?
> Probably not. Seems to me the best way to get more VO-accessible apps is to
> provide developers with incentives for doing so. If that means Apple, or
> some other authoritative organization handing out a meaningful award, once a
> year, for the most VO-accessible app, then so be it. If it means paying a
> little bit more for the apps then, instead of grumbling about the cost, we
> should pay it. If it means bombarding developers with kind, well-thought-out
> eMails about accessibility of their apps, or lack thereof, again, so be it.
> Point is, the developer community has to have a valid, viable reason for
> putting in the extra time and effort to make things accessible and we, the
> members of the VoiceOver community, can be instruments for changing that.
>
> Lastly, I do agree that training would be a huge help. I suspect most
> of us just "wing it" - I know I sure do! LOL I know, good training can be
> hard to come by, can cost bookoo bucks, or may not even be available in more
> remote, rural areas. That being said, knowing how to properly use a tool
> definitely makes using it much easier, enjoyable, efficient, etc. Also,
> before I forget - the suggestion about writing to accessibility@xxxxxxxxx -
> an excellent idea! They do respond, and the issues usually get resolved, if
> not immediately, within the next few releases of the OS.
>
> Well, that's pretty much what I've got to say on the subject. I hope
> I've made some valid points, offered valuable insights and given folks a few
> things to "chew on" as it were?
>
> Take care,
>
> Ron J.
>
> Ron J. | AKA Ganahee
>
> Messenger Services:
>
> AIM: Ganahee
> MSN: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Yahoo!: Ganahee
> Skype: Ganahee
>
> Alternate Contact:
>
> E-Mail: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxx
> Home: 605-759-0694
> Cell: 605-759-0694
>
> "For millions of years, mankind lived, just like the animals. Then something
> happened, which unleashed the power of our imagination - we learned to talk."
>
> From the MD "The Division Bell", the track "Keep Talking".
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:32 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>
>> For word processing, there are a few. There is Bean, iText Express and
>> Nisus Writer Express, that come to mind. There is also the Open Office
>> suite. The spreadsheet part of Open Office is pretty good, or was in the
>> last version I've seen. There is also Tables as a spreadsheet application.
>>
>>
>> Take Care
>>
>> John Panarese
>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ian Edwards <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> John, I deleted the message regarding alternatives to iWork Pages. Can you
>>> give a heads-up as to what you find to be a good solution for word
>>> processing? I've got a pretty good handle on Text Edit, anything else out
>>> there?
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>>
>>> Ian
>>>
>>> On 2012-06-25, at 2:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
>>>
>>>> hello John, and all.
>>>>
>>>> I feel that john. is a wonderful teacher.
>>>> and i am going to get some help from him.
>>>> some day.
>>>>
>>>> keep up the great work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 12:16 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am not disagreeing with
>>>>> some of his points. I am disagreeing with his conclusions and inferences.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon. Let's wait to see
>>>>> what improvements will be found for VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated,
>>>>> strong rumors point to an update to iWorks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John Panarese
>>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Out of interest, what in the original message is preventable with
>>>>>> training? I disagree with the paid alternative to VoiceOver, but aren't
>>>>>> most of the points William raises valid? Tables in Pages are often
>>>>>> difficult, and, at the moment, getting to third party status bar items
>>>>>> is complicated. Pages in general seems to me to have some reasonably big
>>>>>> accessibility bugs--I.E. the inability to read track changes or comments.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just curious, because the
>>>>>> only part of the message I'd question is the part about not being able
>>>>>> to search for form fields in tables on webpages. If there are
>>>>>> straightforward methods for achieving some of the other things he finds
>>>>>> difficult, I'd love to hear about them, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I really think you need proper training because the statements you are
>>>>>>> making just are not true. As I've stated before there are blind people
>>>>>>> who work on accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and I promise
>>>>>>> you with all my heart proper training prevents piss poor performance
>>>>>>> and this is surely a matter of not having the proper training. I will
>>>>>>> leave this alone because a person convinced against their will is of
>>>>>>> the same opinion still.
>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
>>>>>>> <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>> After working for more than 3 years with the mac , it's my personal
>>>>>>>> opinionthat more basic programs are accessible on windows then on the
>>>>>>>> mac platform.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I find it more stable to work on the mac because of the integration of
>>>>>>>> the screenreader voiceover with the osx.
>>>>>>>> The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us by the trackpad and
>>>>>>>> the function-keys with the spoken values.
>>>>>>>> And of course the flexible way we can install , manage the system with
>>>>>>>> voiceover support everywhere.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with voiceover while this is
>>>>>>>> possible on windows, office programs like microsoft office and also
>>>>>>>> iWork's aren't fully accessible with lay-out tasks, in my opinion
>>>>>>>> there are several usability issues with the browsers on the mac, some
>>>>>>>> ellements of the os , like
>>>>>>>> Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages, are very difficult to
>>>>>>>> navigate e.g. you can't search for edit-fields on websites while they
>>>>>>>> are in a table and in pages, you can't work with tables on a
>>>>>>>> comfortable way.
>>>>>>>> the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a normal way with
>>>>>>>> voiceover...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that makes program's
>>>>>>>> accessible with scripts (like screen readers on windows do), should be
>>>>>>>> very welcome I think.
>>>>>>>> With this kind of optional screenreader, blind users should be able to
>>>>>>>> use all the equivalents on the mac of their windows favorites.
>>>>>>>> Perhaps it should push apple to make their screenreader better on a
>>>>>>>> faster speed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
>>>>>>>> I see 2 reasons for this:
>>>>>>>> 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the screenreader of apple
>>>>>>>> should have more possibilities to integrate with the os then the
>>>>>>>> external screenreader.
>>>>>>>> 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a screenreader for the
>>>>>>>> mac while there is one built in.
>>>>>>>> If it should be the second reason, any people with accessibility
>>>>>>>> frustrations on the mac , should communicate this to other companies
>>>>>>>> like gw micro, freedom scientific, baum...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any opinions about this meanings should be very welcome.
>>>>>>>> kind regards,
>>>>>>>> William Windels>
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