[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: David Chittenden <dchittenden@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 18:06:10 +1200
Hello,
I use EndNote, a program for managing citation references, on my Mac. Copy and
paste command c and command v do not work with this program. The only thing
that works is drag and drop, VO comma and VO period. In this case, using drag
and drop is easier on the mac than it is, in my experience, in Windows using
Jaws or System Access. There are programs on both platforms which require mouse
access and/or dragging things around rather than copying and pasting.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchittenden@xxxxxxxxx
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 26/06/2012, at 16:53, Ronald Johnson <ganahee@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> You're right, being able to label buttons, checkboxes, sliders, etc, has been
> a wonderful addition to VO. It's a little annoying, though, that you can
> label tables on web pages, but can't label them in apps. I always found that
> a bit odd. I also find Lion's ability to let you interact with the titles of
> buttons to be great as well. This has proven especially useful in Pulsar,
> the Sirius XM client from Rogue Amoeba, as the checkboxes for adding or
> removing a station from your favorites is contained within the button.
>
> Along those lines, I find the feature in Mountain Lion, of being able to
> drag and drop to hotspots to be quite intriguing. My thinking is that this
> could make keyboard-based dragging and dropping truly practical, reliable and
> nearly fool-proof in VO, for the first time.
>
> BTW, thanks a million for the compliment on what I wrote! Yeah, I know
> it's a mouthful, but I think I covered most of the bases - well hope I did,
> anyways? <grins!>
>
> Take care,
>
> Ron J.
>
> Ron J. | AKA Ganahee
>
> Messenger Services:
>
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>
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> "For millions of years, mankind lived, just like the animals. Then something
> happened, which unleashed the power of our imagination - we learned to talk."
>
> From the MD "The Division Bell", the track "Keep Talking".
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2012, at 10:42 PM, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>
>> Man thats a mouth full and I don't thing Tim Cook could have said it with
>> more clarity. Don't forget the ability to label buttons and elements that
>> are not clearly marked thus adding your own accessibility.
>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 8:46 PM, Keith Reedy <keithreedy@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> Well said and thank you.
>>> Keith Reedy
>>> keithreedy@xxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 6:45 PM, Ronald Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi list!
>>>>
>>>> It's been quite a while since I last posted, but I just felt compelled
>>>> to offer my two cent's worth to this discussion.
>>>>
>>>> First off, let me say that, in point of fact, we do have a pay-for
>>>> screen reader in the form of VoiceOver. If you think about it, in the
>>>> past, when we shelled out our $129.99 for Tiger and Leopard, then, more
>>>> recently, our $29.99 for Snow Leopard and Lion, we were, in fact, paying
>>>> for VoiceOver - just not shelling out between $600 and $1200 for a add-on
>>>> program complete with registration keys, authorizations, etc. The
>>>> difference here is that the entire Mac user community of several million,
>>>> helps Apple fund R&D for VoiceOver with every copy of OS X they purchase.
>>>> Since VO is integrated, yet purely optional, no sighted person ever need
>>>> know, or care, that it's there, until they have need for it, as it's not
>>>> something which is in their way, in their face, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, while it's true there are more accessible apps on the Windows
>>>> platform, than on the Mac, this only stands to reason as JFW's been around
>>>> now for what, about 20 years, give or take? How long has VO been around -
>>>> about 7 years? 8, if you count the Spoken Interface Preview project.
>>>> Quite frankly, since Tiger was released on April 29th, 2005, I've been
>>>> pleasantly surprised at the number of partially-accessible, to
>>>> fully-accessible apps which have become available for the Mac. I've not
>>>> found much I can't do with my Mac, aside from configuring Dropbox, and the
>>>> occasional thing like that. Remember, JFW, Window Eyes, et al, cater to
>>>> the app, while VoiceOver puts the burden on the developer to make their
>>>> apps accessible. Also, pretty much everything in Apple's lineup is
>>>> accessible. Can any other companies say that with a straight face?
>>>>
>>>> Thirdly, if memory serves me correctly, VoiceOver has been able to be
>>>> controlled via Applescript, since Snow Leopard, for sure. I do recall
>>>> that there is a member of this list who was working on a system which
>>>> combined Applescript, VO, and an App, called "KwikKeys", to make apps more
>>>> accessible. In other words, VO is scriptable, in it's own way, same as
>>>> JFW and Window-Eyes. Perhaps people should look to this capability,
>>>> before rushing to the conclusion that we need a "Pay-for" screen reader?
>>>> Seems to me we've been given many marvelous tools by Apple to make using a
>>>> Mac easier and more rewarding. Guys like you, William, can learn
>>>> everything you can about VO and how to make efficient use of it, learn
>>>> applescript, and design a suite of VO scripts which would make some apps
>>>> more VO-friendly than they currently are. You could even sell your suite
>>>> of scripts on the app store? Just a thought…
>>>>
>>>> Finally, might a "Pay-for" screen reader be beneficial? Perhaps, as
>>>> it'd give Apple competition inside the Mac community. Should it happen?
>>>> Probably not. Seems to me the best way to get more VO-accessible apps is
>>>> to provide developers with incentives for doing so. If that means Apple,
>>>> or some other authoritative organization handing out a meaningful award,
>>>> once a year, for the most VO-accessible app, then so be it. If it means
>>>> paying a little bit more for the apps then, instead of grumbling about the
>>>> cost, we should pay it. If it means bombarding developers with kind,
>>>> well-thought-out eMails about accessibility of their apps, or lack
>>>> thereof, again, so be it. Point is, the developer community has to have a
>>>> valid, viable reason for putting in the extra time and effort to make
>>>> things accessible and we, the members of the VoiceOver community, can be
>>>> instruments for changing that.
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, I do agree that training would be a huge help. I suspect most
>>>> of us just "wing it" - I know I sure do! LOL I know, good training can be
>>>> hard to come by, can cost bookoo bucks, or may not even be available in
>>>> more remote, rural areas. That being said, knowing how to properly use a
>>>> tool definitely makes using it much easier, enjoyable, efficient, etc.
>>>> Also, before I forget - the suggestion about writing to
>>>> accessibility@xxxxxxxxx - an excellent idea! They do respond, and the
>>>> issues usually get resolved, if not immediately, within the next few
>>>> releases of the OS.
>>>>
>>>> Well, that's pretty much what I've got to say on the subject. I hope
>>>> I've made some valid points, offered valuable insights and given folks a
>>>> few things to "chew on" as it were?
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>> Ron J.
>>>>
>>>> Ron J. | AKA Ganahee
>>>>
>>>> Messenger Services:
>>>>
>>>> AIM: Ganahee
>>>> MSN: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Yahoo!: Ganahee
>>>> Skype: Ganahee
>>>>
>>>> Alternate Contact:
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Home: 605-759-0694
>>>> Cell: 605-759-0694
>>>>
>>>> "For millions of years, mankind lived, just like the animals. Then
>>>> something happened, which unleashed the power of our imagination - we
>>>> learned to talk."
>>>>
>>>> From the MD "The Division Bell", the track "Keep Talking".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:32 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> For word processing, there are a few. There is Bean, iText Express and
>>>>> Nisus Writer Express, that come to mind. There is also the Open Office
>>>>> suite. The spreadsheet part of Open Office is pretty good, or was in the
>>>>> last version I've seen. There is also Tables as a spreadsheet
>>>>> application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John Panarese
>>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ian Edwards <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> John, I deleted the message regarding alternatives to iWork Pages. Can
>>>>>> you give a heads-up as to what you find to be a good solution for word
>>>>>> processing? I've got a pretty good handle on Text Edit, anything else
>>>>>> out there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Peace,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2012-06-25, at 2:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hello John, and all.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I feel that john. is a wonderful teacher.
>>>>>>> and i am going to get some help from him.
>>>>>>> some day.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> keep up the great work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 12:16 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am not disagreeing
>>>>>>>> with some of his points. I am disagreeing with his conclusions and
>>>>>>>> inferences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon. Let's wait to see
>>>>>>>> what improvements will be found for VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated,
>>>>>>>> strong rumors point to an update to iWorks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John Panarese
>>>>>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Out of interest, what in the original message is preventable with
>>>>>>>>> training? I disagree with the paid alternative to VoiceOver, but
>>>>>>>>> aren't most of the points William raises valid? Tables in Pages are
>>>>>>>>> often difficult, and, at the moment, getting to third party status
>>>>>>>>> bar items is complicated. Pages in general seems to me to have some
>>>>>>>>> reasonably big accessibility bugs--I.E. the inability to read track
>>>>>>>>> changes or comments.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just curious, because the
>>>>>>>>> only part of the message I'd question is the part about not being
>>>>>>>>> able to search for form fields in tables on webpages. If there are
>>>>>>>>> straightforward methods for achieving some of the other things he
>>>>>>>>> finds difficult, I'd love to hear about them, too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Laura
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I really think you need proper training because the statements you
>>>>>>>>>> are making just are not true. As I've stated before there are blind
>>>>>>>>>> people who work on accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and
>>>>>>>>>> I promise you with all my heart proper training prevents piss poor
>>>>>>>>>> performance and this is surely a matter of not having the proper
>>>>>>>>>> training. I will leave this alone because a person convinced against
>>>>>>>>>> their will is of the same opinion still.
>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
>>>>>>>>>> <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>>>>> After working for more than 3 years with the mac , it's my personal
>>>>>>>>>>> opinionthat more basic programs are accessible on windows then on
>>>>>>>>>>> the mac platform.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I find it more stable to work on the mac because of the integration
>>>>>>>>>>> of the screenreader voiceover with the osx.
>>>>>>>>>>> The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us by the trackpad
>>>>>>>>>>> and the function-keys with the spoken values.
>>>>>>>>>>> And of course the flexible way we can install , manage the system
>>>>>>>>>>> with voiceover support everywhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with voiceover while this
>>>>>>>>>>> is possible on windows, office programs like microsoft office and
>>>>>>>>>>> also iWork's aren't fully accessible with lay-out tasks, in my
>>>>>>>>>>> opinion there are several usability issues with the browsers on the
>>>>>>>>>>> mac, some ellements of the os , like
>>>>>>>>>>> Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages, are very difficult to
>>>>>>>>>>> navigate e.g. you can't search for edit-fields on websites while
>>>>>>>>>>> they are in a table and in pages, you can't work with tables on a
>>>>>>>>>>> comfortable way.
>>>>>>>>>>> the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a normal way with
>>>>>>>>>>> voiceover...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that makes program's
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible with scripts (like screen readers on windows do), should
>>>>>>>>>>> be very welcome I think.
>>>>>>>>>>> With this kind of optional screenreader, blind users should be able
>>>>>>>>>>> to use all the equivalents on the mac of their windows favorites.
>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps it should push apple to make their screenreader better on
>>>>>>>>>>> a faster speed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
>>>>>>>>>>> I see 2 reasons for this:
>>>>>>>>>>> 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the screenreader of
>>>>>>>>>>> apple should have more possibilities to integrate with the os then
>>>>>>>>>>> the external screenreader.
>>>>>>>>>>> 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a screenreader for
>>>>>>>>>>> the mac while there is one built in.
>>>>>>>>>>> If it should be the second reason, any people with accessibility
>>>>>>>>>>> frustrations on the mac , should communicate this to other
>>>>>>>>>>> companies like gw micro, freedom scientific, baum...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any opinions about this meanings should be very welcome.
>>>>>>>>>>> kind regards,
>>>>>>>>>>> William Windels>
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