[macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the mac a option?
- From: Ricardo Walker <rwalker296@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2012 02:42:12 -0400
Hi,
no. this was actually an Apple issue from what I've been told. The lack of
access to 3rd party icons in the status menu can't be blamed on the developers
this time. lol. This is do to some Apple restrictions if the story is
accurate. But the dropbox icon is indeed there. I have some usable vision.
Voiceover just doesn't see it. It's up to Apple to take care of this from what
I've gathered.
Ricardo Walker
ricardo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Twitter:@apple2thecore
www.appletothecore.info
On Jun 26, 2012, at 2:31 AM, Ronald Johnson <ganahee@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Ricardo,
>
> Are you able to select a new location for your Dropbox folder? Can you
> adjust the bandwidth adjuster? Can you see what files are being sent, or
> being received, and what transfer speeds, etc? Best I can tell, the DB app,
> itself, is invisible to VO. I do have it installed, as found out about
> having to load it from the UNIX executable in the package contents, and an
> accessible setup window appearing, outside Terminal. I don't believe I see
> any icon in my menu bar though.
>
> I do have some folders set up and shared - with my boyfriend, another
> buddy of mine, and a 3rd person, so I'm quite acquainted with how the folders
> work, etc.
>
> As to icons in the status bar - methinks that's more of a developer
> issue than a VoiceOver issue, as you do see an app which produces a status
> menu icon, which is accessible. Many don't quite work for us though, as I'm
> well aware.
>
> Take care,
>
> Ron
>
> On Jun 26, 2012, at 1:14 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> you can indeed set up and configure dropbox. The thing is, certain menus
>> are not able to be accessed with Voiceover because, as of Now, Voiceover
>> doesn't support 3rd party apps in the status menu. This is similar to to
>> the systems tray in windows. I, and many others have requested this access
>> for a while now. I'm hoping Apple has addressed this in Mountain Lion do
>> out next month. If so, the dropbox app, and many like it that use a icon in
>> the status menu should be 100% accessible or, much more accessible at any
>> rate. But again, dropbox is definitely usable on the Mac. I use it every
>> single day.
>>
>> hth
>>
>> Ricardo Walker
>> ricardo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Twitter:@apple2thecore
>> www.appletothecore.info
>>
>> On Jun 26, 2012, at 1:01 AM, Carol Pearson <carol.pearson29@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What do you mean, that you can't configure Dropbox? Please explain as I
>>> currently use this a lot!
>>>
>>> Carol P
>>> ---- Original Message ----
>>> From: Ronald Johnson
>>> To: macvoiceover@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Sent: Monday, June 25, 2012 11:45 PM
>>> Subject: [macvoiceover] Re: is a paid screenreader for the
>>> mac a option?
>>>
>>>> Hi list!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's been quite a while since I last posted, but I just
>>>> felt compelled to offer my two cent's worth to this
>>>> discussion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> First off, let me say that, in point of fact, we do have
>>>> a pay-for screen reader in the form of VoiceOver. If you
>>>> think about it, in the past, when we shelled out our
>>>> $129.99 for Tiger and Leopard, then, more recently, our
>>>> $29.99 for Snow Leopard and Lion, we were, in fact,
>>>> paying for VoiceOver - just not shelling out between $600
>>>> and $1200 for a add-on program complete with registration
>>>> keys, authorizations, etc. The difference here is that
>>>> the entire Mac user community of several million, helps
>>>> Apple fund R&D for VoiceOver with every copy of OS X they
>>>> purchase. Since VO is integrated, yet purely optional,
>>>> no sighted person ever need know, or care, that it's
>>>> there, until they have need for it, as it's not something
>>>> which is in their way, in their face, etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, while it's true there are more accessible apps
>>>> on the Windows platform, than on the Mac, this only
>>>> stands to reason as JFW's been around now for what, about
>>>> 20 years, give or take? How long has VO been around -
>>>> about 7 years? 8, if you count the Spoken Interface
>>>> Preview project. Quite frankly, since Tiger was released
>>>> on April 29th, 2005, I've been pleasantly surprised at
>>>> the number of partially-accessible, to fully-accessible
>>>> apps which have become available for the Mac. I've not
>>>> found much I can't do with my Mac, aside from configuring
>>>> Dropbox, and the occasional thing like that. Remember,
>>>> JFW, Window Eyes, et al, cater to the app, while
>>>> VoiceOver puts the burden on the developer to make their
>>>> apps accessible. Also, pretty much everything in Apple's
>>>> lineup is accessible. Can any other companies say that
>>>> with a straight face?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thirdly, if memory serves me correctly, VoiceOver has
>>>> been able to be controlled via Applescript, since Snow
>>>> Leopard, for sure. I do recall that there is a member of
>>>> this list who was working on a system which combined
>>>> Applescript, VO, and an App, called "KwikKeys", to make
>>>> apps more accessible. In other words, VO is scriptable,
>>>> in it's own way, same as JFW and Window-Eyes. Perhaps
>>>> people should look to this capability, before rushing to
>>>> the conclusion that we need a "Pay-for" screen reader?
>>>> Seems to me we've been given many marvelous tools by
>>>> Apple to make using a Mac easier and more rewarding.
>>>> Guys like you, William, can learn everything you can
>>>> about VO and how to make efficient use of it, learn
>>>> applescript, and design a suite of VO scripts which would
>>>> make some apps more VO-friendly than they currently are.
>>>> You could even sell your suite of scripts on the app
>>>> store? Just a thought…
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally, might a "Pay-for" screen reader be beneficial?
>>>> Perhaps, as it'd give Apple competition inside the Mac
>>>> community. Should it happen? Probably not. Seems to me
>>>> the best way to get more VO-accessible apps is to provide
>>>> developers with incentives for doing so. If that means
>>>> Apple, or some other authoritative organization handing
>>>> out a meaningful award, once a year, for the most
>>>> VO-accessible app, then so be it. If it means paying a
>>>> little bit more for the apps then, instead of grumbling
>>>> about the cost, we should pay it. If it means bombarding
>>>> developers with kind, well-thought-out eMails about
>>>> accessibility of their apps, or lack thereof, again, so
>>>> be it. Point is, the developer community has to have a
>>>> valid, viable reason for putting in the extra time and
>>>> effort to make things accessible and we, the members of
>>>> the VoiceOver community, can be instruments for changing
>>>> that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Lastly, I do agree that training would be a huge help. I
>>>> suspect most of us just "wing it" - I know I sure do! LOL
>>>> I know, good training can be hard to come by, can cost
>>>> bookoo bucks, or may not even be available in more
>>>> remote, rural areas. That being said, knowing how to
>>>> properly use a tool definitely makes using it much
>>>> easier, enjoyable, efficient, etc. Also, before I forget
>>>> - the suggestion about writing to accessibility@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> - an excellent idea! They do respond, and the issues
>>>> usually get resolved, if not immediately, within the next
>>>> few releases of the OS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well, that's pretty much what I've got to say on the
>>>> subject. I hope I've made some valid points, offered
>>>> valuable insights and given folks a few things to "chew
>>>> on" as it were?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take care,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron J.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron J. | AKA Ganahee
>>>>
>>>> Messenger Services:
>>>>
>>>> AIM: Ganahee
>>>> MSN: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Yahoo!: Ganahee
>>>> Skype: Ganahee
>>>>
>>>> Alternate Contact:
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail: Ganahee@xxxxxxxxx
>>>> Home: 605-759-0694
>>>> Cell: 605-759-0694
>>>>
>>>> "For millions of years, mankind lived, just like the
>>>> animals. Then something happened, which unleashed the
>>>> power of our imagination - we learned to talk."
>>>>
>>>> From the MD "The Division Bell", the track "Keep Talking".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:32 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For word processing, there are a few. There is Bean,
>>>> iText Express and Nisus Writer Express, that come to
>>>> mind. There is also the Open Office suite. The
>>>> spreadsheet part of Open Office is pretty good, or was in
>>>> the last version I've seen. There is also Tables as a
>>>> spreadsheet application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>> John Panarese
>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 4:24 PM, Ian Edwards
>>>> <ianedwards42@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, I deleted the message regarding alternatives to
>>>> iWork Pages. Can you give a heads-up as to what you find
>>>> to be a good solution for word processing? I've got a
>>>> pretty good handle on Text Edit, anything else out there?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2012-06-25, at 2:14 PM, rhonda cruz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> hello John, and all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I feel that john. is a wonderful teacher.
>>>>
>>>> and i am going to get some help from him.
>>>>
>>>> some day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> keep up the great work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 12:16 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's why I offered alternatives to iWorks. I am not
>>>> disagreeing with some of his points. I am disagreeing
>>>> with his conclusions and inferences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's not forget that Mountain Lion is coming soon.
>>>> Let's wait to see what improvements will be found for
>>>> VoiceOver. Also, as I indicated, strong rumors point to
>>>> an update to iWorks.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Panarese
>>>>
>>>> jpanarese@xxxxxxxxx
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Laura <laura.mcg@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Out of interest, what in the original message is
>>>> preventable with training? I disagree with the paid
>>>> alternative to VoiceOver, but aren't most of the points
>>>> William raises valid? Tables in Pages are often
>>>> difficult, and, at the moment, getting to third party
>>>> status bar items is complicated. Pages in general seems
>>>> to me to have some reasonably big accessibility
>>>> bugs--I.E. the inability to read track changes or
>>>> comments.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not picking an argument, honestly. I'm just curious,
>>>> because the only part of the message I'd question is the
>>>> part about not being able to search for form fields in
>>>> tables on webpages. If there are straightforward methods
>>>> for achieving some of the other things he finds
>>>> difficult, I'd love to hear about them, too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Laura
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 25 Jun 2012, at 19:00, VaShaun Jones wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really think you need proper training because the
>>>> statements you are making just are not true. As I've
>>>> stated before there are blind people who work on
>>>> accessibility for the Mac day in and day out and I
>>>> promise you with all my heart proper training prevents
>>>> piss poor performance and this is surely a matter of not
>>>> having the proper training. I will leave this alone
>>>> because a person convinced against their will is of the
>>>> same opinion still.
>>>>
>>>> On Jun 25, 2012, at 8:08 AM, William Windels
>>>> <william.windels@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> After working for more than 3 years with the mac , it's
>>>> my personal opinionthat more basic programs are
>>>> accessible on windows then on the mac platform.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I find it more stable to work on the mac because of the
>>>> integration of the screenreader voiceover with the osx.
>>>>
>>>> The fact that the hardware is also adapted for us by the
>>>> trackpad and the function-keys with the spoken values.
>>>>
>>>> And of course the flexible way we can install , manage
>>>> the system with voiceover support everywhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> However, we can't e.g. configure dropbox with voiceover
>>>> while this is possible on windows, office programs like
>>>> microsoft office and also iWork's aren't fully accessible
>>>> with lay-out tasks, in my opinion there are several
>>>> usability issues with the browsers on the mac, some
>>>> ellements of the os , like
>>>>
>>>> Tables, on websites and on numbers and pages, are very
>>>> difficult to navigate e.g. you can't search for
>>>> edit-fields on websites while they are in a table and in
>>>> pages, you can't work with tables on a comfortable way.
>>>>
>>>> the icon's on the status bar, can't be reached on a
>>>> normal way with voiceover...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My conclusion: a paid screenreader for the mac that makes
>>>> program's accessible with scripts (like screen readers on
>>>> windows do), should be very welcome I think.
>>>>
>>>> With this kind of optional screenreader, blind users
>>>> should be able to use all the equivalents on the mac of
>>>> their windows favorites. Perhaps it should push apple
>>>> to make their screenreader better on a faster speed.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Why such screenreader doesn't exist yet?
>>>>
>>>> I see 2 reasons for this:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Apple should not be happy with this and the
>>>> screenreader of apple should have more possibilities to
>>>> integrate with the os then the external screenreader.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Other communities don't see a reason to make a
>>>> screenreader for the mac while there is one built in.
>>>>
>>>> If it should be the second reason, any people with
>>>> accessibility frustrations on the mac , should
>>>> communicate this to other companies like gw micro,
>>>> freedom scientific, baum...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any opinions about this meanings should be very welcome.
>>>>
>>>> kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> William Windels>
>>>>
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