RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Hi Rick,
The C#, VB, and JScript .NET command-line compilers are included in a full install of the .NET Framework 4. For example, on my system, the full path of the VB compiler is

c:\windows\Microsoft.NET\Framework\v4.0.30319\vbc.exe

For anyone who does not have the latest .NET installed (version 4.0), one convenient way to do so is via a program I wrote called GotNET, available at

http://EmpowermentZone.com/netsetup.exe

Cheers,
Jamal

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 11:33 AM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Hi Jamal: Did you download the compiler or was it in one of the SDKs?
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <c@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 10:28 AM
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!


Here is a version in Visual Basic .NET, which may also be written in a
text editor.

Module Program
Sub Main()
Console.WriteLine("Hello world")
End Sub
End Module

Compile at the command line as follows:

Vbc hello.vb

Jamal

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ken Perry
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:41 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Um how hard is this

//myfile.c
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <stdio.h>
Int main (int argc char *arv)
{
Printf ("hello world");
Return (0);
}

Gcc myfile.c -o myfile

There I just wrote a program that will compile in this email.  I didn't
need an ide I didn't need to drop buttons what I could focus on was the
code.
The problem is you are confusing learning to code with learning to
program
applications. Sure I don't want to start my first full blown
application
writing it at the command line creating the graphical widgets etc.  I do
how ever want to start with a simple step by step method. I could write
a
simple program to take input in only a couple more lines of code and see
the results instantly. If I get errors the errors would pop up
instantly
you wouldn't have to hunt for the window they are in. In c variables
must
be at the top of every code segment or {} section.  In languages like VB
and c++ and C# you can throw in variable declarations any where. Which
is
easier to teach someone put your variables here or hey throw them any
where and then try and hunt down where the error is?

 I could go on but I have had this argument with professors and at least
held my own if not won from time to time. Its great if all you want to
do
is make a sited person happy that they made a simple application but if
you really trying to teach them to code and to continue to learn to code
then you shouldn't lose them in the manusia before they understand what
they are doing.

Now I chalange you to teach me to write a visual basic application in
the
next email you write to this list. Make it write a message to the
screen
and do it from the IDE.  See how many steps you have to explain.




ken
-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jackie
McBride
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 11:10 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
applications you're coding.

It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once folks
kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter &
instruct
the computer to do what they want, then the next logical progression is
something like C. But I think learning C initially is rather like what
my
dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake Michigan in 62 degree
water
over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not teach me to swim any better or
any earlier, believe me.

In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
myself
Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort patient
visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because my crazy
billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked well. That
is
not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some formal
programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself previously
stood
me in very good stead for learning that.

Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
$.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.

On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his
degree
in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have
taught when he took hem.  College is not all it's cracked up to be but
that is another argument.

I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has
to.
In
fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the
VS ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to  so I had
to get
out
of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do.  Heck
for
that
matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which
gets
you
out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code.  In fact you can
find
a
few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if
it
is
for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear...
A person needs to get a good University Education in Computer
Programming or
a

related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help
on
list

with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for
learning
to

do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to
nubes is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of
solving business, engineering or technical problems into computer
code. That is where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill
is mastered then
it
becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done
the former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to
become a Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their
own I assume
they

are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right
mind would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional
Computer Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal
education - it just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or
two out there who did it that way but 99+ percent have taken
University Courses if they work in the field. Jes said he was working
on a project in VS IDE, having problems and the process I outlined
just touched bases with the things he needed to ensure he did, and did
correctly, to get his project up and running. The blurb about learning
Programming ie... IPO, was just to start the brain working in thinking
about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3 things that need to be done,
sigh, and even that is diferent in today's
OOP
world.
Rick USA.
Message -----
From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!




I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out
of college now days.  They code by the drop button and create if
statement method.  Have you actually looked at Job listings.  A
person that learns to code the way you just laid out whether they be
sited or blind will be the bottom of the barrel.  Some jobs asks for
Visual studio but a monkey can make a form and add an if statement to
it to make a button do something.
If
a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
getting themselves where they can be put out by some new AI
programming language that can make the forms straight from  a design
chart created by a secretary.  That type of coding can be done by
anyone.

Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
person can create a half baked program with them.  They did the same
thing to
the
electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that
taught half baked electronics.  Now I am not saying a good
electronics person or a good coder can't come from the easy road what
I am saying is it is much more unlikely that one will.

If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an
assembled language you will understand what is going on.  You
shouldn't even worry about the GUI till you know how programs are
logically put together and why.
Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram
just
to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting
slipperier and messier because we don't understand what is going on
under the engine.

Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
would be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how
to deal with pointers, and understand what a register is because in
the long run if you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog
maker you will need that information and if you think you have become
a coder by creating
some
monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that
job you are not even close to ready for.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
RicksPlace
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!

First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we
use to be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more
complex in other

ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning
curve.
You

need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you
will
be
hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
concert.

That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure
JAWS, again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you
can open the

IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly
nothing
to do with creating a computer program using computer statements.
And,
God
Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well,
you will be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who
get that far.
You absolutely  need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first
Hello World

Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of
the Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a
textbox or 2 on

the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code
for the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
TextBoxes.
If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
Visual

Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does
not have all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to
start with. Once you

get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a
user, Read Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input,
you have the
basic
understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input
/ Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB
you
are
jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you
can pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up
when the Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough -
the tough
ask
questions on list and follow up with more work!
Rick USA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!


Hi all,

All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just
want to be

able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I
get
are
errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
Thanks.
Jes

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--
Change the world--1 deed at a time
Jackie McBride
Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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