Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
- From: Jackie McBride <abletec@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:10:20 -0700
Well, Ken, as I see it, programming is divided into 2 major areas:
1) Learning to think/problem-solve in the way the computer does; & then
2) Learning whatever language u need that will fit the sort of
applications you're coding.
It's a tough road to do both at the same time, & it's why I recommend
learning something easier at first, e.g., basic, Python, etc. Once
folks kind of get the concepts of how to use the compiler/interpreter
& instruct the computer to do what they want, then the next logical
progression is something like C. But I think learning C initially is
rather like what my dad did to me when I was 4--threw me into Lake
Michigan in 62 degree water over my head. Not fun. &, no, it did not
teach me to swim any better or any earlier, believe me.
In retrospect, I rather like the way I approached things--I taught
myself Basic, which I used (& rather effectively, I might add) to sort
patient visits by date for tax purposes when I was in practice because
my crazy billing program didn't. Then I went on to learn C. It worked
well. That is not to say it will work well for others. Then I got some
formal programming training, & I believe what I'd taught myself
previously stood me in very good stead for learning that.
Each person has to go his/her own way, I guess, but I think a gentler
intro than C is more beneficial for those who are self-taught. Just my
$.02--& what do I know? You're the 1 making a living at it, not mwa.
On 6/30/10, Ken Perry <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Actually I know someone who does professional programming who has his degree
> in electronics and only took two coding classes which he could have taught
> when he took hem. College is not all it's cracked up to be but that is
> another argument.
>
> I understand that Jess is using vs but that don't mean he or she has to. In
> fact I ended up having to learn the Microsoft build system because the VS
> ide wouldn't do the cross compile system I wanted it to so I had to get out
> of VS and create the build xml file by hand which you can do. Heck for that
> matter you can code in VB by hand and actually use a compiler which gets you
> out of the graphical IDE and lets you learn to code. In fact you can find a
> few examples of this up on the fruit basket page.
>
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 10:29 PM
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
> Hi Ken: Jes said he is working in the VS IDE already. I don't know if it is
> for school, for work or just for fun. OK, let me set my point clear... A
> person needs to get a good University Education in Computer Programming or a
>
> related field to work in that arena. You can not become a Professional
> Programmer by playing with Visual Studio. You can, however, get help on list
>
> with Visual Studio and it is fine, if you have the patients, for learning to
>
> do some programming as a hobbyist. The things we never talk about to nubes
> is the process of learning to turn a step by step analysis of solving
> business, engineering or technical problems into computer code. That is
> where a University Education comes in.. Once that skill is mastered then it
> becomes a matter of learning a Programming Language and coding up a
> solution. Using a IDE is just a time saving step after you have done the
> former learning processes. When I see someone asking to learn to become a
> Computer Programmer by reading books and learning on their own I assume they
>
> are trying to do it as a hobby. I can't imagine anyone in their right mind
> would seriously consider trying to learn to become a Professional Computer
> Programmer and compete in the Job Market without a formal education - it
> just seems like so much nonsense. There might be one or two out there who
> did it that way but 99+ percent have taken University Courses if they work
> in the field. Jes said he was working on a project in VS IDE, having
> problems and the process I outlined just touched bases with the things he
> needed to ensure he did, and did correctly, to get his project up and
> running. The blurb about learning Programming ie... IPO, was just to start
> the brain working in thinking about inputs, outputs and Processing as 3
> things that need to be done, sigh, and even that is diferent in today's OOP
> world.
> Rick USA.
> Message -----
> From: "Ken Perry" <whistler@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:47 PM
> Subject: RE: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>
>
>>
>>
>> I am sorry Rick but this is what is wrong with most coders coming out of
>> college now days. They code by the drop button and create if statement
>> method. Have you actually looked at Job listings. A person that learns
>> to
>> code the way you just laid out whether they be sited or blind will be the
>> bottom of the barrel. Some jobs asks for Visual studio but a monkey can
>> make a form and add an if statement to it to make a button do something.
>> If
>> a person wants to be a coder they need to be make sure they are not
>> getting
>> themselves where they can be put out by some new AI programming language
>> that can make the forms straight from a design chart created by a
>> secretary. That type of coding can be done by anyone.
>>
>> Colleges switched to GUI environments to make money because any sited
>> person
>> can create a half baked program with them. They did the same thing to the
>> electronics field with places like ITT and other tech schools that taught
>> half baked electronics. Now I am not saying a good electronics person or
>> a
>> good coder can't come from the easy road what I am saying is it is much
>> more
>> unlikely that one will.
>>
>> If on the other hand you start with a compiled language or an assembled
>> language you will understand what is going on. You shouldn't even worry
>> about the GUI till you know how programs are logically put together and
>> why.
>> Otherwise we are going to need that 48 core computer and 12 TB of ram just
>> to run the next text editor because we as coders are getting slipperier
>> and
>> messier because we don't understand what is going on under the engine.
>>
>> Anyway I have ranted enough but a person that is just getting started
>> would
>> be better to start in straight C and learn what memory was, how to deal
>> with
>> pointers, and understand what a register is because in the long run if
>> you're really going to be a coder not a monkey dialog maker you will need
>> that information and if you think you have become a coder by creating some
>> monkey dialogs you will find yourself very screwed when you take that job
>> you are not even close to ready for.
>>
>> Ken
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:programmingblind-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of RicksPlace
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:18 PM
>> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: Re: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>> First, Programming in today's world is a world apart from where we use to
>> be. It is so much simpler in some ways and light years more complex in
>> other
>>
>> ways. Programming in the Visual Studio IDE takes a large learning curve.
>> You
>>
>> need to install and configure that puppy. Fail to do this and you will be
>> hearing more junk and losing focus more than an intrevert at a rock
>> concert.
>>
>> That is a pain itself. Then, if you run JAWS you need to configure JAWS,
>> again better get it right. Then after you get all that done you can open
>> the
>>
>> IDE and look at a bunch of buttons and dialogs that have seemingly nothing
>> to do with creating a computer program using computer statements. And, God
>> Forbid, You try and download and install Sql Server Express, well, you
>> will
>> be headed for gray hair if you are one of the lucky few who get that far.
>> You absolutely need to configure the IDE for accessibility, pick the
>> ssimpelest language, vb.net, to start with and create your first Hello
>> World
>>
>> Form from the Form1 file. That is after you create a new project of the
>> Windows Forms type. Then you can drop a couple of buttons, a textbox or 2
>> on
>>
>> the Form1 designer, set their properties and code the related VB Code for
>> the Button Click Events and mess with the Text Properties of the
>> TextBoxes.
>> If you get that far you will be on your way to learning to Program in
>> Visual
>>
>> Studio. I would start with the Vb.net Express module since it does not
>> have
>> all the other languages and is just a little cleaner to start with. Once
>> you
>>
>> get the nack of making a form do things like Display Output to a user,
>> Read
>> Inputs from a user and do some Processing on the input, you have the basic
>> understanding of what computer programming is really about IPO, Input /
>> Process / Output. If you jump into C++, Visual Studio IDE and a DB you are
>> jumping out of an airplane and flapping as hard as you can but you can
>> pretty much guess the final result. But, Give Up? Did We Give Up when the
>> Germans Bombed Pearl Harbor? No, when the going gets tough - the tough ask
>> questions on list and follow up with more work!
>> Rick USA
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Jes" <theeternalkid@xxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 1:59 PM
>> Subject: I feel like giving up on programming altogether!
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> All I get when using visual studio are nothing but errors! I just want to
>> be
>>
>> able to write a program and have it work! Just once! But no. All I get are
>> errors! So what's the use in even trying? Encouragement needed badly!
>> Thanks.
>> Jes
>>
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--
Change the world--1 deed at a time
Jackie McBride
Scripting Classes: http://jawsscripting.lonsdalemedia.org
homePage: www.abletec.serverheaven.net
For technophobes: www.technophoeb.com
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