[projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
- From: John TFS <johntfs@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:58:38 +0000
For my part, since I don't use "loyalty bonuses" anymore, I look at it this
way. You're still getting Curing healing and your Mentora bonus. If you'll
read the books, you'll note that at many points in the GM series, LW is placed
in injurious situations (a beast bites/claws him, an arrow grazes him, etc) but
takes no listed damage. I figure that's your Curing at work. Meanwhile, when
faced with a bow shot, your skill figure that your Weaponmastery and Mentora
bonuses have already been figured into number needed to succeed with the shot.
> From: feline1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
> Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:01:30 +0100
>
> To step back a bit, remember that the Disciplines themselves are meant to
> be innate talents imbued into the Sommlending by the God Kai, which can be
> unlocked by study, practice, and touching lorestones...
>
> Magnakai and Grand Master Disciplines are not distinct separate skills, they
> are enhancements of existing more basic skills.
>
> There's only two places where (for playability reasons, presumably), the
> Games Rules 'break the fourth wall' and the actual skills, on paper, don't
> purely increase :
>
> 1. Curing > Deliverance, where you go from restoring +1EP per section
> without combat, to restoring +20EP during combat
> 2. Weaponmastery with Bow > Grand Weaponmastery with Bow, where you go from
> +5 on the RNT (at Mentora level), back to +3.
>
> Obviously, this doesn't "make sense" within the logic of Joe's fictional
> world, but only if you've played earlier books and are aware of it.
> Hence, the admission to Lone Wolf Club members regarding "hidden loyalty
> bonuses"
> Now, I have some sympathy for Jonathan's skepticism of this being a rather
> lame "oops, you're right, we screwed up" after-the-event bit of handwaving.
> Certainly, when I reading it on publication as a teenager, I felt rather
> exasperated! I thought "Jeez, you make that sound like it was obvious! And I
> was dumb for not going and doing it off my own bat! But I'd studiously
> avoided it and agonized over it, because I didn't want to 'cheat'..."
>
> However, we are where we are - it must be nearly 20 years since LWC
> Newsletter 28 was published. So however cheeky it might have been at the
> time, it surely now it what we must take as The Rules?
>
> Unless I'm missing some obscure nuance of the point, Jonathan, I don't
> really see why the RNT bonuses for Bows don't fit straightforwardly under
> the aegis of Newsletter 28 (and actually the same point is made in a few
> other earlier Newsletters -
> for example someone once asked the exact same type of thing about Healing
> and Curing - if you start book 6 and don't pick Curing, do you have to drop
> your Healing bonus? Answer: No! If you do pick Curing, do you now get +2EP
> per section? Answer: No!
>
> It seems straightforward to me that what Joe settled on in the end (albeit
> may originally have been a cut-and-paste error),
> was that newbie Grand Masters would get +3 with a Bow, but if they'd already
> been a Mentora they would get +5.
>
> To be honest, +5 is too much.... if you also have the Silver Bow of Duadon,
> you're getting +8!! It's practically impossible to miss, it just gets
> boring! +3 is more fun! (not that arrows ever do much for you in most books
> anyways ........ try firing them in Ixia and weep!)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Neilson
> Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 9:46 PM
> To: projectaon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [projectaon] Re: Outstanding Errata Sprint (Week 6)
>
> heh, I cant help but think this is a subtle way to say "shut up" :)
>
> But I dont think you do understand my argument.
>
> When shooting a bow you can choose to use either Weaponskill or
> Weaponmastery or GWM (but I can only use one of them) and apply the
> relevant situational bonus. Assuming a "normal" section:
>
> * If I used WS I get no bonuses at all for a total of +0.
> * If I used WM I would get +3 from WM-with-bow, +2 bonus if I was at
> least Mentora for a total of +5.
> * If I used GWM I would get +3 from GWM-with-bow for a total of +3.
>
> Alternatively, if the section says you get on-the-spot +5 for having
> GWM:
>
> * If I used WS I get no bonuses at all for a total of +0.
> * If I used WM I would get +3 from WM-with-bow, +2 from Mentora bonus
> for a total of +5.
> * If I used GWM I would get +5 from GWM-with-bow for a total of +5.
>
> In regards to Curing/Deliverance there are 2 situational bonuses:
> every section not in combat (I can use either Healing or Curing - but
> not Deliverance because it doesnt have this situational bonus)
> * If I used Healing I would get +1 EP
> * If I used Curing I would get +1 EP
>
> Once per adventure (I can use either Curing or Deliverance)
> * If I used Curing (and was at least Archmaster) I would gain +20 EP
> (but only if I was under 6 EP)
> * If I used Deliverance I would gain +20 EP (but only if I was under 8
> EP)
>
> Obviously, it would be less useful to use Weaponskill when shooting a
> bow, or Curing's once-per-adventure healing and you probably arent going
> to do it - much like you wouldnt use a normal weapon if you had the
> Sommerswerd.
>
> Your system, if I understand what youre saying, seems to involve trying
> to work out bonuses from the Magnakai series that arent explicitly
> listed in the Grandmaster series and adding them to the explicitly
> listed bonuses but only if the Grandmaster bonus isnt higher and only if
> the moon is waning (ok the last part was just me taking the piss). To me
> this seems overly complicated; you have to look at each Discipline,
> compare it to its Grandmaster equivalent and then work out if the bonus
> should stack/update/be updated the Grandmaster bonus.
>
> My system, you just choose which Discipline (and relevant bonuses) you
> use in any given situation. Basically, when shooting a bow in the
> Grandmaster series you either get your +5 from WM-with-bow (there are no
> sections that give you a on-the-spot bonus for using WM-with-bow, but if
> there were youd get the on-the-spot bonus +2) OR the on-the-spot bonus
> from GWM; you cant have both.
>
> Given the above situation, and the way I understand your argument, youd
> get the on-the-spot GWM bonus, +2 from Mentora bonus which would
> occasionally end up with a higher bonus than my system (ie when the
> on-the-spot GWM bonus was +4 or +5).
>
> Basically it come down to how youve interpreted Newsletter #28:
> "The +1 EP bonus gained when passing through combatless sections does
> still apply, but only if you have played and survived the Magnakai
> series books. Joe Dever intended this as a 'hidden loyalty bonus' for
> readers who had played the earlier books, which is why it was omitted
> from the Grand Master rules."
>
> (it explicitly states the +1 EP bonus but I assume it refers to all
> bonuses not covered in the Grand Master rules)
>
> You treat the +1 EP as the hidden loyalty bonus and add it on top of
> anything in the GM rules - ie the bonus itself still applies. I read it
> to mean the whole Discipline (ie Curing and its associated bonuses) can
> be used whenever applicable - ie the Discipline and its bonuses still
> apply. Both interpretations fit the statement above - yours just applies
> more bonuses in certain situations but to me seems more messy as you
> have to work out which bonuses stack with other bonuses.
>
>
> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 16:29 +0800, Timothy Pederick wrote:
> > Chris, I'd love to do another point-by-point counterargument, but I
> > think we're clogging up the list with our most stimulating
> > discussion. :-) (Also I'm short on time right now...)
> >
> > Let me therefore conclude as follows.
> >
> > Healing: +1 EP per section.
> > Curing: +1 EP per section.
> >
> > Like bonuses; don't stack.
> >
> > Curing: +1 EP per section.
> > Deliverance: +20 EP once per adventure.
> >
> > Unlike bonuses; do stack.
> >
> > Weaponmastery with Bow: +3 to Bow number picks.
> > Mentora Weaponmastery: +2 to missile weapon number picks.
> >
> > Unlike bonuses; do stack.
> >
> > Mentora Weaponmastery: +2 to missile weapon number picks.
> > Grand Weaponmastery with Bow: +3 to Bow number picks.
> >
> > Unlike bonuses; do stack.
> >
> > If I've understood your argument correctly, you believe either:
> > * You can't use any bonus of whatever kind from Weaponmastery
> > and Grand Weaponmastery together; or
> > * The Weaponmastery, Mentora, and Grand Weaponmastery bonuses
> > are like, not unlike, and so don't stack.
> > I believe the first is a valid perspective; I simply choose a
> > different one. I think that applying such a rule consistently would
> > mean that you can't use Curing's +1 EP and Deliverance's +20 EP in the
> > same adventure, either.
> >
> > The second is also fine if you believe (as you suggested once, but
> > don't appear to use as your preferred perspective) that you can't
> > stack WM and Mentora bonuses for a total of +5. If you can stack them,
> > then I don't see why they should be a special exception.
> >
> > Gotta go! Thanks for the debate. :-)
> >
> > --
> > Tim Pederick
>
>
>
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