Charlie Clark wrote:
Am 13.05.2007 um 12:27 schrieb Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki):I gave my input to the issues of lack of openness that somebody else (who is actually a well-known developer) raised by starting this thread, and I did so because I believe that the status quo is extremely detrimental for Haiku.Yes, but you should have answered the post appropriately: your reasons for leaving Haiku were private. Instead you've used it to further your own ends.
So now you want to tell me what's appropriate and what's not? Sigh...To set the record straight, I did not mention my reasons for leaving the admin group on this thread; you are mixing up stuff. What I did on this particular thread was give insight of what choices had been made so far with regards to project openness and having a shop as a means to raise funds.
Furthermore, I know that some of the devs agree with that assessment. So this is not just Koki brow-beating and overinflating expectations as you would like others to believe.But that's what your tactics are. You stifle debate as a result. This isn't about who agrees with whom. I know there are developers who agree with both us. So what?
If Haiku does not have debates, it is not because of me.I don't use any tactics. I am just more vocal on those topics (like this one, for example) where I think I can give input that could be valuable for Haiku. There are many topics on this list that I don't participate, simply because I don't have anything to contribute in the form of an informed opinion or advise. So don't portray me as taking over the whole mailing list.
As to your "so what?" question, that's an indication that something is not right and needs to fixed. Is that a difficult concept to understand?
You are free to choose the take the easy way out and resign yourself to the status quo, but don't complain because others try to do the right thing of actually addressing the problems instead of just giving up. The things that I have said may not sound very nice, but that does not make them illegitimate.You're talking up the problems in order to be able to offer solutions for them. Your verbosity and exaggeration detract from your arguments.
I did NOT start this thread about perceived lack of openness. I don't talk up problems; the problems already existed before I even said or wrote anything. Does the fact that somebody (a developer) brought this topic up mean anything to you?
As for the developers defending themselves: they're mainly far too polite for that and prefer coding to argument. Ingo's closing remark was pretty clear if you chose to listen to it but instead you dragged up your old arguments which are essentially about giving *you* the power to do and decide.I don't care about power. You are making all this up. If all I wanted was power, I would have remained as an admin. You don't have a clue of what you are talking about.It's plain to me that you're an egomaniac seeking to monopolise the discussion and thrust your vision of what Haiku should be on anyone prepared to listen.
Talk about being verbose. Any other adjectives that you would like to add your characterization of me based on email psychoanalysis?
With regards to the developers, I think I know them enough to know that if something bothers them, they will tell me directly. Nobody asked you to be their messenger.Well, I know almost all of them personally and I wouldn't presume to be their messenger. And, while I might presume to say what some of them think, I'm only speaking for myself.
You are speaking for yourself, as in saying "but you're just miles off where Haiku is and, in my view, *incredibly disrespectful to those actually doing the hard work of coding*"?
I say, if the project is underfunded, try to do something about it, not just resign yourself to the fact that it is a hopeless situation. That's not going to improve the situation, nor is it going to inspire the developers or the community.Who says I've resigned myself to anything and who says I'm not doing something about it? As it happens I am member of a Haiku supporters' club. For fairly obvious reasons I'm not involved in Haiku Corp.
It was not a broad statement that I made; it was specific to the lack of openness issues that brought up by someone else on this thread. You say that I am making up problems, so that implies that you think there are none, and therefore satisfied with the status quo.
As for delegation and openness: the Haiku developers have done this all perfectly with respect to the website, the icon set and other issues.I have the highest regard for the Haiku developers. But even they admit not having the mindset or motivation to handle stuff unrelated to development. This non-developmental stuff has been neglected for too long, and it's simply not happening. So while you may want to live in your "everything is perfect dreamworld," there are many in the community and some developers too that are aware of the issues, and would like to see something done about them.There you go again putting words into my mouth. I've never claimed that everything is perfect. Just because I don't share your apocalyptic vision does not make me an apologist for the status quo.
How am I putting words in your mouth? You said: "Haiku developers *have done this all perfectly* with respect to the website, the icon set and other issues." Are you saying that I made this up too?
Besides, this is an open mailing list, and people are free to express their opinions or give their suggestions (this is what I am doing). If you are not interested in any particular subject, all you have to do is stop reading.I think that is what happens. I know at least one developer who's decided to do this. It hasn't stopped his work on the project.
And I do so too, as I am sure others do. Not all topics are of interest to everyone. Why do you want to make this a personal thing, as in "Koki is driving people away from the list"?
I don't want anything from you. I am just asking that if you are going to tell me that I should not criticize others because they have made contributions, why do you not apply the same standard to yourself before criticizing me?I'm criticising you for being a windbag not for your marcom work.
OK, so, Koki is a windbag, egomaniac that creates problems and exaggerates them as a tactic to put himself in a position to offer solutions and thus get undeserved notoriety, and that also monopolizes the mailing list and as a result stifles debate and drives people away from the project. (ufff... I ran out of breath...)
But wait... No, that's too verbose...How about: Koki is someone concerned about the future of Haiku and is making an attempt to help change things for the good?
Go ahead, and use all your educated British gentleman royal English language arsenal to depict me in a demeaning way if that gives you pleasure. But that will not change the fact that Haiku has real problems -- as expressed not just by myself but also by others here and elsewhere -- and that only by acknowledging those problems (as opposed to ignoring or neglecting them) will Haiku be able to overcome them.