[openbeos] Re: Openness

  • From: Charlie Clark <charlie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: openbeos@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 13:36:19 +0200

Am 13.05.2007 um 12:27 schrieb Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki):

I gave my input to the issues of lack of openness that somebody else (who is actually a well-known developer) raised by starting this thread, and I did so because I believe that the status quo is extremely detrimental for Haiku.

Yes, but you should have answered the post appropriately: your reasons for leaving Haiku were private. Instead you've used it to further your own ends.

Furthermore, I know that some of the devs agree with that assessment. So this is not just Koki brow-beating and overinflating expectations as you would like others to believe.

But that's what your tactics are. You stifle debate as a result. This isn't about who agrees with whom. I know there are developers who agree with both us. So what?

All this complaining about lack of resources and underfunding is sounds like a broken record, and it's nothing but whining and excuses not to take the bull by the horns. It is very easy to give explanations of why things do not or cannot get done; anybody can do that. But not many people are willing to confront the issues and try to do something about them.

Nothing new about that.

You are free to choose the take the easy way out and resign yourself to the status quo, but don't complain because others try to do the right thing of actually addressing the problems instead of just giving up. The things that I have said may not sound very nice, but that does not make them illegitimate.

You're talking up the problems in order to be able to offer solutions for them. Your verbosity and exaggeration detract from your arguments.

As for the developers defending themselves: they're mainly far too polite for that and prefer coding to argument. Ingo's closing remark was pretty clear if you chose to listen to it but instead you dragged up your old arguments which are essentially about giving *you* the power to do and decide.

I don't care about power. You are making all this up. If all I wanted was power, I would have remained as an admin. You don't have a clue of what you are talking about.

It's plain to me that you're an egomaniac seeking to monopolise the discussion and thrust your vision of what Haiku should be on anyone prepared to listen.

With regards to the developers, I think I know them enough to know that if something bothers them, they will tell me directly. Nobody asked you to be their messenger.

Well, I know almost all of them personally and I wouldn't presume to be their messenger. And, while I might presume to say what some of them think, I'm only speaking for myself.

Project management is important as is accountability but neither sit easy with underfunded volunteer arrangements.

Here goes the whining again.

Is that whining? I thought it was a simple observation.

I say, if the project is underfunded, try to do something about it, not just resign yourself to the fact that it is a hopeless situation. That's not going to improve the situation, nor is it going to inspire the developers or the community.

Who says I've resigned myself to anything and who says I'm not doing something about it? As it happens I am member of a Haiku supporters' club. For fairly obvious reasons I'm not involved in Haiku Corp.

As for delegation and openness: the Haiku developers have done this all perfectly with respect to the website, the icon set and other issues.

I have the highest regard for the Haiku developers. But even they admit not having the mindset or motivation to handle stuff unrelated to development. This non-developmental stuff has been neglected for too long, and it's simply not happening. So while you may want to live in your "everything is perfect dreamworld," there are many in the community and some developers too that are aware of the issues, and would like to see something done about them.

There you go again putting words into my mouth. I've never claimed that everything is perfect. Just because I don't share your apocalyptic vision does not make me an apologist for the status quo.

BTW, and for your information, the new website was created under my direction, not that of the devs. May I also remind you that while some held discussions to death over a long period of time about how bad all the CMS out there were and how this or that system was better than all the others, somebody came along, stepped up to the plate and actually delivered.

Ouch! The choice of CMS was dictated by hosting concerns and not technical merits, IIRC. As a result I did choose to leave the web team and move on. I also kept my reasons to myself.

What I really don't get is that we're having this discussion on this list although you were part of the admin team. No, I don't want to know the details, but it strikes me as a failure to understand the basics of collective responsibility to resign on an issue and then try and force change from the outside instead of moving on.

Haiku is an open source community project; there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to participate from the outside, even for a former admin like me. Your notion that anybody that quits the admin group has to move on is just ludicrous. What is this? La Cosa Nostra?

You were in an ideal position to change things as part of the admin team but you left. Put your dummy back in, get over it and move on.

Besides, this is an open mailing list, and people are free to express their opinions or give their suggestions (this is what I am doing). If you are not interested in any particular subject, all you have to do is stop reading.

I think that is what happens. I know at least one developer who's decided to do this. It hasn't stopped his work on the project.

I don't want anything from you. I am just asking that if you are going to tell me that I should not criticize others because they have made contributions, why do you not apply the same standard to yourself before criticizing me?

I'm criticising you for being a windbag not for your marcom work.

To end, I just wish more people made their voice heard on this topic...

Little chance with you monopolising the bandwidth! And thus ends my contribution to the topic before it becomes a slanging match between the two of us.

Charlie Clark
Helmholtzstr. 20
D- 40215
Tel: +49-211-938-5360
GSM: +49-178-782-6226

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