Hi Charlie, Charlie Clark wrote:
Am 12.05.2007 um 21:35 schrieb Jorge G. Mare (a.k.a. Koki):I may be blunt, I admit that: but my intentions are sincere and for the best interest of Haiku. I doubt that any of the people that I have addressed my messages to (with whom I have a good relationship) feel that I have been disrespectful to them. But if they do, they know they can tell me so in the face and will issue an apology on the spot, right on this list. Plus, they are all adults, so I am sure they can defend themselves.It's not bluntness that's at issue. It's also not sincerity. It's about brow-beating, overinflating expectations and some rather bizarre ideas about the responsibilities of a charitable body and the usual nebulosity about "community". A bit less of the missionary zeal would be a help. There are less than twenty active developers working on Haiku and not enough money in the pot for paying one of them for a month.
I gave my input to the issues of lack of openness that somebody else (who is actually a well-known developer) raised by starting this thread, and I did so because I believe that the status quo is extremely detrimental for Haiku. Furthermore, I know that some of the devs agree with that assessment. So this is not just Koki brow-beating and overinflating expectations as you would like others to believe.
Now, since you mention the lack of money and developers, what is Haiku doing about it? What is it doing about raising more funds? What is it doing about getting more developers? This is what this is all about.
All this complaining about lack of resources and underfunding is sounds like a broken record, and it's nothing but whining and excuses not to take the bull by the horns. It is very easy to give explanations of why things do not or cannot get done; anybody can do that. But not many people are willing to confront the issues and try to do something about them.
You are free to choose the take the easy way out and resign yourself to the status quo, but don't complain because others try to do the right thing of actually addressing the problems instead of just giving up. The things that I have said may not sound very nice, but that does not make them illegitimate.
As for the developers defending themselves: they're mainly far too polite for that and prefer coding to argument. Ingo's closing remark was pretty clear if you chose to listen to it but instead you dragged up your old arguments which are essentially about giving *you* the power to do and decide.
I don't care about power. You are making all this up. If all I wanted was power, I would have remained as an admin. You don't have a clue of what you are talking about.
With regards to the developers, I think I know them enough to know that if something bothers them, they will tell me directly. Nobody asked you to be their messenger.
Project management is important as is accountability but neither sit easy with underfunded volunteer arrangements.
Here goes the whining again. I say, if the project is underfunded, try to do something about it, not just resign yourself to the fact that it is a hopeless situation. That's not going to improve the situation, nor is it going to inspire the developers or the community.
As for delegation and openness: the Haiku developers have done this all perfectly with respect to the website, the icon set and other issues.
I have the highest regard for the Haiku developers. But even they admit not having the mindset or motivation to handle stuff unrelated to development. This non-developmental stuff has been neglected for too long, and it's simply not happening. So while you may want to live in your "everything is perfect dreamworld," there are many in the community and some developers too that are aware of the issues, and would like to see something done about them.
BTW, and for your information, the new website was created under my direction, not that of the devs. May I also remind you that while some held discussions to death over a long period of time about how bad all the CMS out there were and how this or that system was better than all the others, somebody came along, stepped up to the plate and actually delivered.
What I really don't get is that we're having this discussion on this list although you were part of the admin team. No, I don't want to know the details, but it strikes me as a failure to understand the basics of collective responsibility to resign on an issue and then try and force change from the outside instead of moving on.
Haiku is an open source community project; there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to participate from the outside, even for a former admin like me. Your notion that anybody that quits the admin group has to move on is just ludicrous. What is this? La Cosa Nostra?
Besides, this is an open mailing list, and people are free to express their opinions or give their suggestions (this is what I am doing). If you are not interested in any particular subject, all you have to do is stop reading.
I'm all for free speech, so feel free to think and write that I am just filling the list with hot air under the guise of professionalism in order to feed my ego. I am bit puzzled, though, as I have also done some hard work for Haiku, and that has apparently not stopped you from being critical of my actions. Double standard? Or code is all that counts to gain respect? :PWhat double standards? You want a pat on the back from me? Why? Can I have one for all the work I've done? We've both done work for Haiku and received recognition for it at the time. That's enough for me. Beyond that for Haiku it really is the coding that counts.
I don't want anything from you. I am just asking that if you are going to tell me that I should not criticize others because they have made contributions, why do you not apply the same standard to yourself before criticizing me?
To end, I just wish more people made their voice heard on this topic... Cheers, Koki