(VICT) Re: Off-leash?
- From: "Ann Edie" <annedie@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:05:43 -0400
Hi, Sheila,
While you certainly don't need my blessing, I don't see anything wrong with
what you are doing with respect to off-leash work. In fact, I think we are
pretty much on the same wavelength. I think it is important to let Panda
run and really exercise those muscles, and she has plenty of room to do that
in the riding arena or in a fenced yard with me in attendance. And I do
practice off-leash heeling and recalls in these areas as well. In fact, all
of my horses have learned to come to me from wherever they are in the arena
or field when I present the cue of my raised hand and the word "Touch".
And, as you have said, it is important to know your dog and to accurately
judge his/her reliability off leash. My little Japanese mixed-breed pet dog
Chiko was absolutely trustworthy off leash. She was my beloved "first
daughter" and my shadow for 13 and a half years. She competed in obedience
fun matches, off-leash, of course, within the nominally-fenced obedience
ring. Still, I usually kept her on leash when we went for walks in the
neighborhood or further afield. If I were sighted and able to visually
monitor her movements and the environment, I would probably have let her go
for walks with me off leash.
My schipperke, Ryder, was a different story entirely. Schipperkes are
characteristically curious, independent, and adventurous dogs, not the type
to prefer to stay at their person's heels over investigating an interesting
smell or chasing a cat or a squirrel. In fact, Ryder's daddy climbed a
6-foot fence and escaped onto the road and was killed by a car. (He was not
my dog; I was just told this story.) But consequently, I never took Ryder
for walks off leash, despite the fact that he too competed in the obedience
ring at the Open level.
My friend Dolores, who has been a breed show exhibitor and judge for several
breeds, a sled dog breeder and trainer, and a clicker trainer of both dogs
and horses, has had rescued Australian cattle dogs which quickly learn to
follow her around her large property off leash and often accompany her to
friends' places and into town, also completely off leash. But even Dolores
keeps her schipperkes on leash, either tethered to herself, or sometimes
tethered to the Australian cattle dog.
And I have lived through anxious periods of days or weeks with Dolores when
she was trying to find one or several of her huskies--another independent,
adventurous breed--which had escaped from their kennels and were roaming the
woods and residential neighborhoods miles from home until recaptured or
lured into baited traps. And one of her favorite schipperkes, an old male
who was completely deaf and easily became disoriented when out of his small
exercise pen, somehow slipped out when the house door was opened,and
wandered off, and tragically was never found again.
So, a lot, I think, depends on the breed characteristics and individual
temperament of the dog, as to whether that dog can be trusted to reliably
return when called. Training can certainly accomplish a lot in terms of
obedience. But even with the most tractible breed and best training method
and skill, we cannot control the myriad other variables in the environment.
We all take some level of risk, of course, just by living and being out and
about in the community. It's just a matter of being knowledgeable about our
particular dog and breed, and being realistic about the risks we are taking,
both of which I know you are, Sheila.
Best,
Ann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sheila Styron" <sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 1:43 PM
Subject: (VICT) Re: Off-leash?
> Ann, I can certainly understand your concern about ever letting guide
> animals off leash in an area that isn't safe, and I share these
> concerns. However, there are some benefits. Whether in an enclosed or
> unfenced area, the muscles need to be exercised off leash to achieve the
> sorts of benefits speed, tight turns and stopping and starting can
> provide. I also feel that the value of obedience and exercise off leash
> without fences accustoms the animal to being in a situation when if you
> have to call them, they will be more likely to come. My cat is an indoor
> outdoor cat who comes when called fairly reliably for a cat. I have even
> heard cats making those fighting meows and called him away from danger.
> I am in no way telling anyone to drop their precious animal's leash
> where there are no fences, but by allowing my dog to experience herself
> in a relationship with me without a leash compelling her to stay with
> me, I personally feel better prepared for that one time when I may need
> to call her and she will come instead of bolt. BTW, GDB also reads a
> similar letter during training, and I do believe this is a very
> appropriate message to get across during class. I know I practiced
> dangerous activities with my first two guides neither of whom had
> dependable recalls. My last three do stick close, and when I unhook a
> leash in an open space, I remain ever vigilant and practice frequent
> recalls. I don't leave my current three dogs unsupervised to play in my
> fenced yard, as they can get in to trouble out there as well. A pretty
> good sized hole can be dug in less than sixty seconds and the nasty
> things that can go into mouths....
>
> Sheila Styron, President
> Guide Dog Users, Inc.
> 816-363-3172
> sheilastyron@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:vi-clicker-trainers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ann Edie
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 2:50 AM
> To: vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Off-leash?
>
>
> Hi, Sandy,
>
> Sandy, I'm completely with you on the issue of off-leash play for guide
> dogs--train for off-leash obedience for the few accidental situations
> when
> it will be absolutely essential, but don't turn the dog loose for play
> or
> exercise except in known, safe, enclosed places.
>
> Back in the dark ages when I went to TSE for my first guide dog, as part
> of
> our training they read us a letter from Peter Putnam to the school. In
> the
> letter, Mr. Putnam describes how his guide dog, a black German shepherd,
> was
> struck by a car and killed in her prime, because he let her go out to
> relieve off leash. He was visiting his parents' home in a rural area
> where
> the road had little traffic at any time, and this was late at night when
>
> there were virtually no cars on the road at all. He also said that his
> dog
> always stayed close to him even when off leash. But for some reason, on
>
> that particular night, the dog suddenly darted across the road, and just
> at
> that same moment a car came driving down the road. The driver could not
> see
> the black dog in the dark of night, and so there was no way to prevent
> the
> tragic loss of his dog. Mr. Putnam was devastated by the death of his
> dog,
> and on top of that he bore the burden of guilt for his neglegence and
> for
> squandering the large investment of time, effort, and money which had
> gone
> into the dog's breeding, raising, and training.
>
> This letter was included in the instruction given to all Seeing Eye
> classes
> in order to impress upon us the need to keep our dogs under control and
> on
> leash at all times and to remind us that even an instant of lapse of
> protocol can result in irreparable harm. I don't know if TSE still
> includes
> this letter among its required instructional materials, but I know that
> I,
> for one, still recall Mr. Putnam's letter whenever I am tempted to take
> chances with the safety of my guides, even though they are not Seeing
> Eye
> dogs.
>
> Even with maximum attention to safety, proper training, and protocol, we
>
> cannot prevent all accidents and tragedies. But letting my valuable and
>
> beloved guides run in unfenced areas off leash is a risk I have not been
>
> willing to take simply to give the dog a chance to exercise or play with
>
> other dogs. I find many opportunities to allow the dog to play and
> relax in
> safe, enclosed places, and I think guide work provides plenty of
> physical
> exercise for the dog.
>
> I agree with others who have said that pet owners sometimes have
> different
> ideas about what a dog needs and what is natural for dogs. But that
> doesn't
> mean that I need to cave in to their opinions. I will try to give my
> guides
> all the exercise, opportunity for social interaction, stress relief,
> companionship, and whatever else the animal needs, to maintain its
> emotional
> as well as physical and mental health and well being. But I will not
> take
> unnecessary risks with the guide's safety, any more than I would take
> needless risks with my own safety.
>
> I do see the great value in doing obedience work off leash, first in
> enclosed spaces, and only gradually in places with more exposure and
> more
> distractions, and then perhaps using a light long line as an additional
> safety measure as well as a training tool. I practice recalls in many
> locations, not just during formal obedience exercises, but also just
> from
> time to time when I don't even need the animal to do anything for me. I
>
> just call him/her, and when he/she comes to me, I click and treat and
> make a
> big, happy fuss, then release the guide. In this way, I hope to build a
>
> very strong reinforcement history for that rare moment when the animal
> gets
> loose accidentally or I drop my leash.
>
> As a matter of fact, with Panda I have been putting in place another
> small
> insurance policy, that is, I have been reinforcing her for picking up
> her
> leash when I drop it and handing it back to me. I'm hoping that if I
> ever
> do drop her leash inadvertently when we're out and about, that she will
> be
> so accustomed to picking the leash up and handing it to me that she will
>
> pause long enough to do this even in very distracting circumstances, and
>
> that this pause will give me time to regain control of her, with her
> help,
> no less!
>
> Best to all.
>
> Ann
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Infinitepaws@xxxxxxx>
> To: <vi-clicker-trainers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2007 6:34 PM
> Subject: (VICT) Re: Off-leash?
>
>
>> Ok, I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest! The reason I asked was
>> due
>> to
>> a client commenting that she thought it sad and unfair that I did not
> let
>> Alex
>> off leash in a public place. I have also heard of guide dog users who
>> routinely do this.This is a park that isnt fenced and is surrounded
> by
>> fairly busy
>> streets, There is a pond and dogs are allowed off leash to play and to
>
>> swim
>> in the pond. For those who know Denver , it is Wash Park. I explained
>
>> that
>> Alex is too valuable to me as a guide and as my dog, to risk it. Yes,
> she
>> has a
>> awesome recall and yes she can even be recalled off of really
> interesting
>> stuff. But, as I pointed out, it only takes one mistake and one
> second
>> for her
>> to get hurt or killed. I dont know the dogs that are there and it
> isnt
>> fenced.
>> I pointed this out to her and highly advised her to not do it. In
>> addition,
>> all I would need now is a dogfight after last week, to really wreck
>> things..
>> sigh..
>>
>> There are a lot of folks who wonder why I work on off-leash obedience
>> , if
>> I
>> dont intend to have her off leash.. Because, there will always be that
> one
>> time when you need it..when she slips out of a gate, when she is
> attacked
>> and I
>> drop her leash, when I drop her leash if i trip and fall. I do work in
>> different folks fenced yards and with her dragging a longline alot..
> and
>> I hope to
>> god I never need it.
>>
>> Sandy Foushee
>> Infinite Paws-Abilities Training and Service Dogs
>> Teamed with Alexandra Guide/Service Dog
>> Colorado Service/Assistance Dog Club - Trainer.-
>>
>>
>> ************************************** See what's new at
>> http://www.aol.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
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