Bruce determining acceptable impedance vs frequency for a PDN is the first and most important design step. While it is often difficult to get information from IC suppliers there is no good substitute for this step no matter what is needed to take care of it: * Very conservative design, What is conservative enough? |--- Plan on evaluating in the lab and hope you have enough flexibility to make any needed adjustments. * Measurement of key ICs in advance * Beat on the IC suppliers until they supply needed data Steve. On 5/10/2013 3:56 AM, Bruce wrote: > Hi Istvan > > Thanks for your answer. My concern is how I can determine whether the > resonance causes a problem for power, signal integrity and EMI? > There are some solution come to my mind > 1. Base on operate frequency of ICs. I believe this is not enough. > 2. If I can get the CPM model. I can simulate the current and get the > answer, But CPM file is not so easy to get it. > 3. SSN simulation. But it also a little big challenge to run an accurate > SSN simulation because of Model problem > 4. Base on test. But that is after test. We need judge it before prototype > Any other good method to determine the resonance is a problem or not? Thanks > > > Best Regards, > Bruce Wu > > -----Original Message----- > From: Istvan Novak [mailto:istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx] > Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 8:17 PM > To: bruce@xxxxxxxxxx > Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance > Material > > Hi Bruce, > > The anti-resonance between the static capacitance of planes and > inductance of bypass capacitors will always be present unless you either > match the plane impedance with the ESRs of capacitors or overwhelm the > antiresonance with MANY low-inductance bypass capacitors. The > antiresonance is present with any laminate material, thin or thick. > When you use thin laminates (Embedded Capacitance Material), the > resonance magnitude and frequency both get lower with respect to a > thicker laminate. First you have to determine whether the resonance > causes a problem for power, signal integrity and EMI. If you dont > excite the resonance, you dont need to care. > > Regards, > > Istvan Novak > Oracle > > > > > On 5/9/2013 2:26 AM, Bruce wrote: >> Hi Expert >> >> >> We use Embedded Capacitance Material for better PDN and less capacitor >> component. According to PDN Simulation. We notice that is an > anti-resonance >> point between capacitor and Plane. >> >> >> >> We can find that when use Embedded Capacitance Material. There are much >> better in most frequency but near anti-resonance point. >> >> >> >> In this case. We have to solution. >> >> 1. Try to reduce the anti-resonance point. We need many high frequency >> capacitor component. That is not good because we want to reduce the number >> of capacitor component. Our purpose is reduce 70% number of capacitor >> component. >> >> 2. Keep this anti-resonance point. That maybe have a risk if there is >> some noise by chance in this frequency >> >> >> >> How about your suggestion? Please let me know if my question is not clear >> enough. >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> Best Regards, >> >> Bruce Wu >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > To unsubscribe from si-list: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > > For help: > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field > > > List forum is accessible at: > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list > > List archives are viewable at: > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu > > > -- Steve Weir IPBLOX, LLC 1580 Grand Point Way MS 34689 Reno, NV 89523-9998 www.ipblox.com (775) 299-4236 Business (866) 675-4630 Toll-free (707) 780-1951 Fax All contents Copyright (c)2013 IPBLOX, LLC. All Rights Reserved. This e-mail may contain confidential material. If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all records and notify the sender. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List forum is accessible at: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu