[SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance Material
- From: steve weir <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:53:16 -0700
Lee, there are outlier cases where significant difference in the
frequency of low number modes can be shown particularly on low layer
count PCBs.
Best Regards,
Steve.
On 5/10/2013 9:16 AM, Lee wrote:
> I have seen no evidence that plane resonances contribute to EMI or that
> distributing capacitors evenly over a plane has much effect on resonances.
> I do this so that there is an even distribution of "ground" vias across the
> planes as has been recommended by Istvan.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 7:09 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance
> Material
>
> There are also free spreadsheet calculators from Altera, Xilinx, and Terry
> Fox & Associates. KEMET Spice can be used for that purpose to some extent.
>
> Dennis
>
> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Wyatt <ken@...> wrote:
>> Thanks Chas,
>> I remember those days...things have progressed greatly.
>>
>> Do you, or the group, know of affordable simulation S/W (Ansoft, maybe?)
>> that would simulate plane resonances? My limited budget won't support
>> multi-G$ S/W, unfortunately. That would be pretty cool to be able to
>> simulate that. I saw a recent demo of HyperLynx that was impressive.
>>
>> I know Istvan has several Excel calculators that will model PDN
>> impedances.
>>
>> You coming to the Denver symposium this year?
>>
>> Cheers, Ken
>> ___________________
>> Kenneth Wyatt
>> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
>> Woodland Park, CO
>> ken@...
>> Web Newsletter
>> Connect with me on LinkedIn!
>>
>> On May 9, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Grasso, Charles wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ken,
>>>
>>> When faced with large areas of pwb that have little or no components, it
>>> used common practice for EMI guys to add lossy caps (the lossier the
>>> better)
>>> to the planes in a regular pattern to minimize the effects of plane
>>> resonance. With modern simulation tools, the resonant modes of the
>>> planes
>>> can be simulated and caps added (in just the right spot!) to reduce the
>>> effect.
>>>
>>> Chas
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...] On Behalf Of Istvan
>>> Novak
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 7:23 AM
>>> To: Ken Wyatt
>>> Cc: bruce@...; si-list@...
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded
>>> Capacitance Material
>>>
>>> Ken,
>>> Bypass capacitors with more lossy dielectrics do help somewhat, but the
>>> dielectric loss shows up strongly in the ESR only at frequencies much
>>> lower than the series resonance frequency, where we usually dont need
>>> the higher ESR. Very lossy (and sloppy) dielectrics, such as Z5U and
>>> Y5V are good for cheap consumer electronics, but for professional
>>> circuits there are many drawbacks and it is not the best thing to use
>>> them. Ceramic capacitors with user-defined ESR are available from two
>>> of the major capacitor vendors, so they can be used when we need the
>>> highest performance and can afford the higher cost for these parts.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Istvan Novak
>>> Oracle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/9/2013 9:00 AM, Ken Wyatt wrote:
>>>> Hi Group & Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> I'm kind of a "newby" when it comes to SI, but am reading Lee Richey's
>>>> books on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> One thing he recommends for PDN designs is the use of bypass
>>>> capacitors with a more lossy dielectric (higher ESR), such as X5R, Z5U
>>>> or Y5V, to dampen the anti-resonance. Would this be a reasonable thing
>>>> to try?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>> ___________________
>>>> Kenneth Wyatt
>>>> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
>>>> Woodland Park, CO
>>>> ken@... <mailto:ken@...> Web
>>>> <http://www.emc-seminars.com> Newsletter
>>>> <http://emc-seminars.us1.list-manage.com/subscribe?u˜7f203d1f64dd89f
>>>> 06b0c3f5&id 0f29a904> Connect with me on LinkedIn
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt>!
>>>>
>>>> On May 9, 2013, at 5:16 AM, Istvan Novak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>>
>>>>> The anti-resonance between the static capacitance of planes and
>>>>> inductance of bypass capacitors will always be present unless you
>>>>> either match the plane impedance with the ESRs of capacitors or
>>>>> overwhelm the antiresonance with MANY low-inductance bypass
>>>>> capacitors. The antiresonance is present with any laminate material,
>>>>> thin or thick.
>>>>> When you use thin laminates (Embedded Capacitance Material), the
>>>>> resonance magnitude and frequency both get lower with respect to a
>>>>> thicker laminate. First you have to determine whether the resonance
>>>>> causes a problem for power, signal integrity and EMI. If you dont
>>>>> excite the resonance, you dont need to care.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Istvan Novak
>>>>> Oracle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/9/2013 2:26 AM, Bruce wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Expert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use Embedded Capacitance Material for better PDN and less
>>>>>> capacitor component. According to PDN Simulation. We notice that is
>>>>>> an anti-resonance point between capacitor and Plane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can find that when use Embedded Capacitance Material. There are
>>>>>> much better in most frequency but near anti-resonance point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case. We have to solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Try to reduce the anti-resonance point. We need many high
>>>>>> frequency
>>>>>> capacitor component. That is not good because we want to reduce the
>>>>>> number of capacitor component. Our purpose is reduce 70% number of
>>>>>> capacitor component.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Keep this anti-resonance point. That maybe have a risk if
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> some noise by chance in this frequency
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about your suggestion? Please let me know if my question is not
>>>>>> clear enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Wu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>>>> si-list-request@... <mailto:si-list-request@...>
>>>>> with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>>>
>>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> For help:
>>>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>>
>> List forum is accessible at:
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6310 - Release Date: 05/09/13
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
1580 Grand Point Way
MS 34689
Reno, NV 89523-9998
www.ipblox.com
(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax
All contents Copyright (c)2013 IPBLOX, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
This e-mail may contain confidential material.
If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all records
and notify the sender.
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
