[SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance Material
- From: "Lee " <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 11:11:32 -0700
Be nice to see some data on this before we tell people that it matters.
-----Original Message-----
From: steve weir
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 10:53 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance
Material
Lee, there are outlier cases where significant difference in the
frequency of low number modes can be shown particularly on low layer
count PCBs.
Best Regards,
Steve.
On 5/10/2013 9:16 AM, Lee wrote:
> I have seen no evidence that plane resonances contribute to EMI or that
> distributing capacitors evenly over a plane has much effect on resonances.
> I do this so that there is an even distribution of "ground" vias across
> the
> planes as has been recommended by Istvan.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dennis
> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 7:09 AM
> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance
> Material
>
> There are also free spreadsheet calculators from Altera, Xilinx, and Terry
> Fox & Associates. KEMET Spice can be used for that purpose to some
> extent.
>
> Dennis
>
> --- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Wyatt <ken@...> wrote:
>> Thanks Chas,
>> I remember those days...things have progressed greatly.
>>
>> Do you, or the group, know of affordable simulation S/W (Ansoft, maybe?)
>> that would simulate plane resonances? My limited budget won't support
>> multi-G$ S/W, unfortunately. That would be pretty cool to be able to
>> simulate that. I saw a recent demo of HyperLynx that was impressive.
>>
>> I know Istvan has several Excel calculators that will model PDN
>> impedances.
>>
>> You coming to the Denver symposium this year?
>>
>> Cheers, Ken
>> ___________________
>> Kenneth Wyatt
>> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
>> Woodland Park, CO
>> ken@...
>> Web Newsletter
>> Connect with me on LinkedIn!
>>
>> On May 9, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Grasso, Charles wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ken,
>>>
>>> When faced with large areas of pwb that have little or no components, it
>>> used common practice for EMI guys to add lossy caps (the lossier the
>>> better)
>>> to the planes in a regular pattern to minimize the effects of plane
>>> resonance. With modern simulation tools, the resonant modes of the
>>> planes
>>> can be simulated and caps added (in just the right spot!) to reduce the
>>> effect.
>>>
>>> Chas
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...] On Behalf Of Istvan
>>> Novak
>>> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 7:23 AM
>>> To: Ken Wyatt
>>> Cc: bruce@...; si-list@...
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded
>>> Capacitance Material
>>>
>>> Ken,
>>> Bypass capacitors with more lossy dielectrics do help somewhat, but the
>>> dielectric loss shows up strongly in the ESR only at frequencies much
>>> lower than the series resonance frequency, where we usually dont need
>>> the higher ESR. Very lossy (and sloppy) dielectrics, such as Z5U and
>>> Y5V are good for cheap consumer electronics, but for professional
>>> circuits there are many drawbacks and it is not the best thing to use
>>> them. Ceramic capacitors with user-defined ESR are available from two
>>> of the major capacitor vendors, so they can be used when we need the
>>> highest performance and can afford the higher cost for these parts.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Istvan Novak
>>> Oracle
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 5/9/2013 9:00 AM, Ken Wyatt wrote:
>>>> Hi Group & Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> I'm kind of a "newby" when it comes to SI, but am reading Lee Richey's
>>>> books on the subject.
>>>>
>>>> One thing he recommends for PDN designs is the use of bypass
>>>> capacitors with a more lossy dielectric (higher ESR), such as X5R, Z5U
>>>> or Y5V, to dampen the anti-resonance. Would this be a reasonable thing
>>>> to try?
>>>>
>>>> Ken
>>>> ___________________
>>>> Kenneth Wyatt
>>>> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
>>>> Woodland Park, CO
>>>> ken@... <mailto:ken@...> Web
>>>> <http://www.emc-seminars.com> Newsletter
>>>> <http://emc-seminars.us1.list-manage.com/subscribe?u˜7f203d1f64dd89f
>>>> 06b0c3f5&id 0f29a904> Connect with me on LinkedIn
>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt>!
>>>>
>>>> On May 9, 2013, at 5:16 AM, Istvan Novak wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Bruce,
>>>>>
>>>>> The anti-resonance between the static capacitance of planes and
>>>>> inductance of bypass capacitors will always be present unless you
>>>>> either match the plane impedance with the ESRs of capacitors or
>>>>> overwhelm the antiresonance with MANY low-inductance bypass
>>>>> capacitors. The antiresonance is present with any laminate material,
>>>>> thin or thick.
>>>>> When you use thin laminates (Embedded Capacitance Material), the
>>>>> resonance magnitude and frequency both get lower with respect to a
>>>>> thicker laminate. First you have to determine whether the resonance
>>>>> causes a problem for power, signal integrity and EMI. If you dont
>>>>> excite the resonance, you dont need to care.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Istvan Novak
>>>>> Oracle
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 5/9/2013 2:26 AM, Bruce wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Expert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We use Embedded Capacitance Material for better PDN and less
>>>>>> capacitor component. According to PDN Simulation. We notice that is
>>>>>> an anti-resonance point between capacitor and Plane.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can find that when use Embedded Capacitance Material. There are
>>>>>> much better in most frequency but near anti-resonance point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In this case. We have to solution.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Try to reduce the anti-resonance point. We need many high
>>>>>> frequency
>>>>>> capacitor component. That is not good because we want to reduce the
>>>>>> number of capacitor component. Our purpose is reduce 70% number of
>>>>>> capacitor component.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Keep this anti-resonance point. That maybe have a risk if
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>> some noise by chance in this frequency
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How about your suggestion? Please let me know if my question is not
>>>>>> clear enough.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Wu
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>>>> si-list-request@... <mailto:si-list-request@...>
>>>>> with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>>>
>>>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> For help:
>>>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>>>
>>>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>>
>>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>>
>>> For help:
>>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>>
>>>
>>> List forum is accessible at:
>>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>>
>>> List archives are viewable at:
>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>>
>>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>>
>> List forum is accessible at:
>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>>
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6310 - Release Date: 05/09/13
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
--
Steve Weir
IPBLOX, LLC
1580 Grand Point Way
MS 34689
Reno, NV 89523-9998
www.ipblox.com
(775) 299-4236 Business
(866) 675-4630 Toll-free
(707) 780-1951 Fax
All contents Copyright (c)2013 IPBLOX, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
This e-mail may contain confidential material.
If you are not the intended recipient, please destroy all records
and notify the sender.
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6313 - Release Date: 05/10/13
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
