[SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance Material
- From: "Lee " <leeritchey@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <dennis.han@xxxxxxxxx>, <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 09:16:21 -0700
I have seen no evidence that plane resonances contribute to EMI or that
distributing capacitors evenly over a plane has much effect on resonances.
I do this so that there is an even distribution of "ground" vias across the
planes as has been recommended by Istvan.
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis
Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 7:09 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance
Material
There are also free spreadsheet calculators from Altera, Xilinx, and Terry
Fox & Associates. KEMET Spice can be used for that purpose to some extent.
Dennis
--- In si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Ken Wyatt <ken@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks Chas,
> I remember those days...things have progressed greatly.
>
> Do you, or the group, know of affordable simulation S/W (Ansoft, maybe?)
> that would simulate plane resonances? My limited budget won't support
> multi-G$ S/W, unfortunately. That would be pretty cool to be able to
> simulate that. I saw a recent demo of HyperLynx that was impressive.
>
> I know Istvan has several Excel calculators that will model PDN
> impedances.
>
> You coming to the Denver symposium this year?
>
> Cheers, Ken
> ___________________
> Kenneth Wyatt
> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
> Woodland Park, CO
> ken@...
> Web Newsletter
> Connect with me on LinkedIn!
>
> On May 9, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Grasso, Charles wrote:
>
> > Hello Ken,
> >
> > When faced with large areas of pwb that have little or no components, it
> > used common practice for EMI guys to add lossy caps (the lossier the
> > better)
> > to the planes in a regular pattern to minimize the effects of plane
> > resonance. With modern simulation tools, the resonant modes of the
> > planes
> > can be simulated and caps added (in just the right spot!) to reduce the
> > effect.
> >
> > Chas
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: si-list-bounce@... [mailto:si-list-bounce@...] On Behalf Of Istvan
> > Novak
> > Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 7:23 AM
> > To: Ken Wyatt
> > Cc: bruce@...; si-list@...
> > Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded
> > Capacitance Material
> >
> > Ken,
> > Bypass capacitors with more lossy dielectrics do help somewhat, but the
> > dielectric loss shows up strongly in the ESR only at frequencies much
> > lower than the series resonance frequency, where we usually dont need
> > the higher ESR. Very lossy (and sloppy) dielectrics, such as Z5U and
> > Y5V are good for cheap consumer electronics, but for professional
> > circuits there are many drawbacks and it is not the best thing to use
> > them. Ceramic capacitors with user-defined ESR are available from two
> > of the major capacitor vendors, so they can be used when we need the
> > highest performance and can afford the higher cost for these parts.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Istvan Novak
> > Oracle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 5/9/2013 9:00 AM, Ken Wyatt wrote:
> >> Hi Group & Bruce,
> >>
> >> I'm kind of a "newby" when it comes to SI, but am reading Lee Richey's
> >> books on the subject.
> >>
> >> One thing he recommends for PDN designs is the use of bypass
> >> capacitors with a more lossy dielectric (higher ESR), such as X5R, Z5U
> >> or Y5V, to dampen the anti-resonance. Would this be a reasonable thing
> >> to try?
> >>
> >> Ken
> >> ___________________
> >> Kenneth Wyatt
> >> Wyatt Technical Services LLC
> >> Woodland Park, CO
> >> ken@... <mailto:ken@...> Web
> >> <http://www.emc-seminars.com> Newsletter
> >> <http://emc-seminars.us1.list-manage.com/subscribe?u˜7f203d1f64dd89f
> >> 06b0c3f5&id 0f29a904> Connect with me on LinkedIn
> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt>!
> >>
> >> On May 9, 2013, at 5:16 AM, Istvan Novak wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Bruce,
> >>>
> >>> The anti-resonance between the static capacitance of planes and
> >>> inductance of bypass capacitors will always be present unless you
> >>> either match the plane impedance with the ESRs of capacitors or
> >>> overwhelm the antiresonance with MANY low-inductance bypass
> >>> capacitors. The antiresonance is present with any laminate material,
> >>> thin or thick.
> >>> When you use thin laminates (Embedded Capacitance Material), the
> >>> resonance magnitude and frequency both get lower with respect to a
> >>> thicker laminate. First you have to determine whether the resonance
> >>> causes a problem for power, signal integrity and EMI. If you dont
> >>> excite the resonance, you dont need to care.
> >>>
> >>> Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Istvan Novak
> >>> Oracle
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 5/9/2013 2:26 AM, Bruce wrote:
> >>>> Hi Expert
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We use Embedded Capacitance Material for better PDN and less
> >>>> capacitor component. According to PDN Simulation. We notice that is
> >>>> an anti-resonance point between capacitor and Plane.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> We can find that when use Embedded Capacitance Material. There are
> >>>> much better in most frequency but near anti-resonance point.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> In this case. We have to solution.
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Try to reduce the anti-resonance point. We need many high
> >>>> frequency
> >>>> capacitor component. That is not good because we want to reduce the
> >>>> number of capacitor component. Our purpose is reduce 70% number of
> >>>> capacitor component.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Keep this anti-resonance point. That maybe have a risk if
> >>>> there is
> >>>> some noise by chance in this frequency
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> How about your suggestion? Please let me know if my question is not
> >>>> clear enough.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best Regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Bruce Wu
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> >>> si-list-request@... <mailto:si-list-request@...>
> >>> with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >>>
> >>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> >>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >>>
> >>> For help:
> >>> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> List forum is accessible at:
> >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> >>>
> >>> List archives are viewable at:
> >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> >>>
> >>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> >
> > List forum is accessible at:
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> >
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from si-list:
> > si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
> >
> > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
> >
> > For help:
> > si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
> >
> >
> > List forum is accessible at:
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
> >
> > List archives are viewable at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> >
> > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@... with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@... with 'help' in the Subject field
>
>
> List forum is accessible at:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3336 / Virus Database: 3162/6310 - Release Date: 05/09/13
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List forum is accessible at:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
