[SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded Capacitance Material
- From: <dbrooks9@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 16:35:59 -0700
UltraCAD has a "poor man's" simulator for doing this in it calcul= ator
section. Look for it here:http://www.ultracad.com[1]
Doug
=0A=0A-------- Original Message --------
=0ASubject: [= SI-LIST] Re: anti-resonance point when use Embedded
=0ACapacitance Mater= ial
=0AFrom: Ken Wyatt <ken@e= mc-seminars.com[2]>
=0ADate: Thu, May 09, 2013 2:53 pm
=0ATo: Charles.Grasso@xxxxxxxxxxxx[3]=
=0ACc: "istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx" <istvan.novak@xxxxxxxxxxx[4]>,
=0A"bruce@xxxxxxxxxx[5]" <= bruce@xxxxxxxxxx[6]>, "si-list=
@freelists.org[7]"
=0A<si-l= ist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[8]>
=0A
=0AThanks Chas,
=0AI remember those = days...things have progressed greatly.
=0A
=0ADo you, or the group, k= now of affordable simulation S/W (Ansoft,
maybe?)that would simulate plane= resonances? My limited budget won't
supportmulti-G$ S/W, unfortunately. T= hat would be pretty cool to be able
tosimulate that. I saw a recent demo = of HyperLynx that was impressive.
=0A
=0AI know Istvan has several Ex= cel calculators that will model PDN
impedances.
=0A
=0AYou coming to = the Denver symposium this year?
=0A
=0ACheers, Ken
=0A____________= _______
=0AKenneth Wyatt
=0AWyatt Technical Services LLC
=0AWoodla= nd Park, CO
=0Aken@emc-seminars.= com[9]
=0AWeb Newsletter
=0AConnect with me on LinkedIn!
=0A
= =0AOn May 9, 2013, at 2:22 PM, Grasso, Charles wrote:
=0A
=0A> Hel= lo Ken,
=0A>
=0A> When faced with large areas of pwb that have= little or no components,
it used common practice for EMI guys to add loss= y caps (the lossier the
better)
=0A> to the planes in a regular patt= ern to minimize the effects of plane
resonance. With modern simulation tool= s, the resonant modes of the planes
=0A> can be simulated and caps a= dded (in just the right spot!) to reduce
the effect.
=0A>
=0A&g= t; Chas
=0A>
=0A> -----Original Message-----
=0A> From:= si-list-bounce@freelists.o= rg[10] [mailto:si-list-boun=
ce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[11]] On Behalf Of Istvan Novak
=0A> Sent: Thursday, = May 09, 2013 7:23 AM
=0A> To: Ken Wyatt
=0A> Cc: bruce@xxxxxxxxxx[12]; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx[13]
=0A> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: anti-= resonance point when use Embedded
Capacitance Material
=0A>
=0A&g= t; Ken,
=0A> Bypass capacitors with more lossy dielectrics do help so= mewhat, but
the dielectric loss shows up strongly in the ESR only at freque= ncies much
lower than the series resonance frequency, where we usually dont= need the
higher ESR. Very lossy (and sloppy) dielectrics, such as Z5U and= Y5V are
good for cheap consumer electronics, but for professional circuits= there
aremany drawbacks and it is not the best thing to use them. Cerami= c
capacitors with user-defined ESR are available from two of the major capa=
citor vendors, so they can be used when we need the highest performance and=
can afford the higher cost for these parts.
=0A>
=0A> Regards= ,
=0A>
=0A> Istvan Novak
=0A> Oracle
=0A>
=0A&= gt;
=0A>
=0A>
=0A> On 5/9/2013 9:00 AM, Ken Wyatt wrot= e:
=0A>> Hi Group &Bruce,
=0A>>
=0A>> I'm = kind of a "newby" when it comes to SI, but am reading Lee
Richey's
=0A&= gt;> books on the subject.
=0A>>
=0A>> One thing he r= ecommends for PDN designs is the use of bypass
=0A>> capacitors w= ith a more lossy dielectric (higher ESR), such as X5R,
Z5U
=0A>> = or Y5V, to dampen the anti-resonance. Would this be a reasonable
thing
= =0A>> to try?
=0A>>
=0A>> Ken
=0A>> _____= ______________
=0A>> Kenneth Wyatt
=0A>> Wyatt Technical = Services LLC
=0A>> Woodland Park, CO
=0A>> ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[14] <mailto:ken@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[15]> Web
=0A>>= <http://www.emc-seminars.com> Newsletter
=0A>> <http://emc-seminars.us1.list=
-manage.com/subscribe?u=C2=987f203d1f64dd89f[17]
=0A>> 06b0c3f5&am= p;id 0f29a904> Connect with me on LinkedIn
=0A>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/= kennethwyatt>!
=0A>>
=0A>> On May 9, 2013, at 5:1= 6 AM, Istvan Novak wrote:
=0A>>
=0A>>> Hi Bruce,
= =0A>>>
=0A>>> The anti-resonance between the static c= apacitance of planes and
=0A>>> inductance of bypass capacitor= s will always be present unless you
=0A>>> either match the pl= ane impedance with the ESRs of capacitors or
=0A>>> overwhelm = the antiresonance with MANY low-inductance bypass
=0A>>> capac= itors. The antiresonance is present with any laminate
material,thin or th= ick.
=0A>>> When you use thin laminates (Embedded Capacitance M= aterial), the
=0A>>> resonance magnitude and frequency both ge= t lower with respect to a
=0A>>> thicker laminate. First you = have to determine whether the resonance
=0A>>> causes a proble= m for power, signal integrity and EMI. If you dont
=0A>>> exc= ite the resonance, you dont need to care.
=0A>>>
=0A>>= ;> Regards,
=0A>>>
=0A>>> Istvan Novak
=0A&g= t;>> Oracle
=0A>>>
=0A>>>
=0A>>>= ;
=0A>>>
=0A>>> On 5/9/2013 2:26 AM, Bruce wrote:=
=0A>>>> Hi Expert
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>= ;>
=0A>>>> We use Embedded Capacitance Material for bett= er PDN and less
=0A>>>> capacitor component. According to P= DN Simulation. We notice that
is
=0A>>>> an anti-resonance = point between capacitor and Plane.
=0A>>>>
=0A>>&g= t;>
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>> We can find that whe= n use Embedded Capacitance Material. There are
=0A>>>> much= better in most frequency but near anti-resonance point.
=0A>>>= >
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>>= ; In this case. We have to solution.
=0A>>>>
=0A>>= >>1. Try to reduce the anti-resonance point. We need many high
=0A>>>>frequency
=0A>>>> capacitor component= . That is not good because we want to reduce
the
=0A>>>> nu= mber of capacitor component. Our purpose is reduce 70% number of
=0A>= ;>>> capacitor component.
=0A>>>>
=0A>>&g= t;> 2. Keep this anti-resonance point. That maybe have a risk if
=0A>>>>there is
=0A>>>> some noise by chance = in this frequency
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>>
=0A>= ;>>>
=0A>>>> How about your suggestion? Please let= me know if my question is not
=0A>>>> clear enough.
=0A= >>>>
=0A>>>> Thanks
=0A>>>>
= =0A>>>>
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>> Best Re= gards,
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>> Bruce Wu
=0A>&g= t;>>
=0A>>>>
=0A>>>>
=0A>>&= gt;>
=0A>>>
=0A>>>
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=0A>
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