[lit-ideas] Re: Aren't you glad you no longer have a Hitler problem?

  • From: Carol Kirschenbaum <carolkir@xxxxxxxx>
  • To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  • Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 21:27:58 -0700

LH: I know, several of you has been amazed that with all my reading...

ck: It's rare to find someone so impressed with himself. A few books read on a 
vast subject and you're an expert. No, you're not, but apparently you think you 
are. This is sadly infuriating. I had hoped you'd outworn this puffed-up stance.
Carol K.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Lawrence Helm 
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:57 PM
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Aren't you glad you no longer have a Hitler problem?

  What are you talking about, Mike?  Are you saying it doesn't matter if most 
Muslims subscribe to Islamic Fundamentalism as long as the "spirit of Islam" is 
something else?  At best that would be saying that Islamic Fundamentalism is 
heterodox, but be that as it may, that is what we are dealing with today.  You 
do almost have the Christian parallel.  Christian Fundamentalism isn't militant 
but it does seem to predominate today.  I don't know the precise percentages 
but the Christian Fundamentalist denominations probably predominate amongst 
"Conservative Christians."  I have argued with Christian Fundamentalists a 
number of times over the years.  Fortunately none of them has tried to kill me 
- as far as I know.  

  I know, several of you has been amazed that with all my reading I haven't 
discovered the truth that you guys have - although Stan may have discovered my 
real problem.  I've become a Frankenstein.  But be that as it may, Islam today 
is not very peaceful.  Protestants and Catholics quite trying to kill each 
other after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, but there has never been anything 
like that in Islam.  Shiites and Sunnis still kill each other - as well as 

  We have the right to defend ourselves against enemies who attack us. Who 
cares if they think they are right?  

  Your analysis of the Crusades is interesting.  How do you think the Muslims 
got to all those places the Crusaders sought to evict them from?  They 
conquered them.


  -----Original Message-----
  From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
On Behalf Of Mike Geary
  Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:22 PM
  To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Aren't you glad you no longer have a Hitler problem?


  >>This stuff is well known Mike.  Wahhabism originated in Saudi Arabia in 

  >>the 18th Century.  Salafism came along later.  They were both 

  >>Fundamentalist in nature.  Maududi wrote and was very influential in the 

  >>days before and after Pakistan became an independent nation.  The Muslim 

  >>Brothers, influenced by Wahhabism, were influential about the same time in 

  >>Egypt.  Sayyid Qutb was a Muslim Brother.<<

  Well known, yes, but totally inaccurate as far as the spirit of Islamism is 

  concerned.  Islam is not Wahabism or any other -ism but is Islam.  Islam is 

  no more "captured" by its radical offshoots than Christianity is by Bob 

  Jonesism or Pat Robertsonism or Jerry Falwellism or Dobsonism or any of the 

  other dozens of Christian fascist sects.  There are fascist kooks galore 

  within all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, you name it.  All are 

  home to fascists who want to control the world.  The worst of course was the 

  Catholic Church -- but thank god, Protestantism came along -- along with 

  hundreds of thousand killed by both sides -- but that's the price of God as 

  they say.   Islam is a religion as deeply rooted in love and respect for the 

  human individual as any religion.  And the more I read into it, the more I 

  think that perhaps it's more deeply rooted in peace and love than 

  Christianity or Judaism.    I'm amazed that your wide reading hasn't brought 

  that home to you..  Must be what you're reading.

  As to who are the good guys and who are the bad, I guess I must fall in line 

  with Andy.  They're all evil.

  Today's holy homicide isn't unusual. It has been happening for centuries. 

  When the First Crusade was launched against "infidels" in the Holy Land, 

  mob-like armies gathered around Europe. Some Germans followed a goose 

  thought to be enchanted by God. It led them into Jewish neighborhoods, where 

  they slaughtered the residents. Advancing Christian armies decapitated 

  Muslims and catapulted the heads into beseiged cities. Finally, the 

  crusaders captured Jerusalem and massacred the populace. A chronicler priest 

  wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even 

  the bridles of horses, by the just and marvelous judgment of God"

  After a Vatican council proclaimed that the host wafer miraculously turns 

  into Jesus' body during the mass, rumors spread that Jews were stealing the 

  wafers and driving nails through them to crucify Jesus again. Murderous mobs 

  wiped out more than 100 Jewish communities to avenge the tortured host.

  Other massacres stemmed from rumors that Jews were sacrificing Christian 

  children and using their blood in rituals.

  When the Albigenses Christians in southern France wouldn't conform to 

  official dogma, Pope Innocent III sent troops to exterminate them. After the 

  town of Beziers was captured, soldiers asked their papal adviser how to 

  distinguish the faithful from the heretics among the townspeople. He 

  commanded, "Kill them all. God will know his own." It was done.

  The hunt for heretics led to establishment of the Office of the Inquisition. 

  Pope Innocent IV authorized torture. Shrieking victims were broken on 

  fiendish machines and then paraded to the stake. Some were scientists like 

  Giordano Bruno, who incurred the church's wrath by teaching that the planets 

  orbit the sun.

  In the 1400s, the Inquisition turned its attention to witchcraft. Clerics 

  declared that some women were having sex with Satan, transforming themselves 

  into animals, flying through the sky at night, and casting hexes on godly 

  folk. The number of "witches" tortured and executed over three centuries is 

  estimated from 100,000 to 2 million.

  From the 1500s, members of India's Thuggee sect strangled people because 

  they believed that the goddess Kali wanted her followers to eliminate excess 

  lives generated by Brahma the Creator. Thugs were garroting an estimated 

  20,000 victims a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped out the 

  religion. At an 1840 trial, one Thug was accused of sacrificing 931 people.

  The Reformation triggered two centuries of religious war that took millions 

  of lives. Eight Huguenot-Catholic wars ravaged France. Protestant-Catholic 

  slaughter sundered the Low Countries. England suffered killings when the 

  Anglicans broke with Rome -- then more killings when the Puritans broke with 

  the Anglicans. The Thirty Years War brought the worst religious death toll 

  of all time. Amid the Catholic-Protestant combat in Europe, both sides 

  paused to kill Anabaptists for their crime of double baptism.

  Islamic jihads (holy wars) killed multitudes over the course of 12 

  centuries. First Muslims spread the faith west to Spain and east to India. 

  Then breakaway sects branded other Muslims as infidels and warred against 

  them. A jihad in the Nile Valley in the 1880s destroyed an Egyptian army and 

  wiped out defenders of Khartoum, led by British General "Chinese" Gordon. 

  Wahhabi believers crushed other Muslims and created the fundamentalist 

  kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

  After the Baha'i faith began in Iran in 1844, the Shi'ite majority killed 

  Baha'is by the thousands -- and this persecution has continued into the 


  Muslim and Hindu taboos led to the Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. British governors 

  in India gave their native troops new paper cartridges that had to be bitten 

  open. Animal grease on the cartridges infuriated Hindus, to whom cows are 

  sacred, and Muslims, to whom pigs are satanic. Troops of both faiths 

  rebelled and massacred Europeans.

  In the late 1800s and again during World War I, Muslim Turks and Christian 

  Armenians killed each other by the hundreds of thousands.

  In a tragic irony, the great pacifist Mahatma Gandhi forced the British to 

  leave India in 1947 -- which freed Hindus and Muslims to set upon each other 

  in a killing frenzy that cost perhaps a million lives. Outbreaks have 

  continued ever since. For example, a pig walked through a Muslim holy ground 

  at Moradabad in 1980. Muslims blamed Hindus for it, and subsequent rioting 

  killed 200 people.

  The most religious nation today probably is Iran, "the government of God on 

  Earth." It is the execution capital of the world, where thousands are put to 

  death. Shi'ite terrorists who killed American hostages on an airliner at 

  Teheran Airport in 1984 announced that they did it "for the pleasure of 


  Today, with Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India on the brink of war over the 

  religious strife in Kashmir, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace 

  warns that both sides possess atomic weapons. That would be the ultimate 

  madness: the world's first thermonuclear religious war.

  Ronald Reagan hailed religion as a force for good, "the bedrock of moral 

  order." That's a common view. But people need to realize there's another 

  side to religion -- a deadly one that has produced tragedy, century after 

  century. http://www.newwave.net/~haught/homicide.html

  It's still the same old story.  A fight for love and glory a case of do or 

  die.   Or would could just declare religion and nationalism and tribalism 

  and classism evil and move on towards some kind of humanism.  What do you 


  Mike Geary

  Mosque Master



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