[lit-ideas] Re: Aren't you glad you no longer have a Hitler problem?

  • From: "Lawrence Helm" <lawrencehelm@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2006 20:57:00 -0700

What are you talking about, Mike?  Are you saying it doesn't matter if most
Muslims subscribe to Islamic Fundamentalism as long as the "spirit of Islam"
is something else?  At best that would be saying that Islamic Fundamentalism
is heterodox, but be that as it may, that is what we are dealing with today.
You do almost have the Christian parallel.  Christian Fundamentalism isn't
militant but it does seem to predominate today.  I don't know the precise
percentages but the Christian Fundamentalist denominations probably
predominate amongst "Conservative Christians."  I have argued with Christian
Fundamentalists a number of times over the years.  Fortunately none of them
has tried to kill me - as far as I know.  


I know, several of you has been amazed that with all my reading I haven't
discovered the truth that you guys have - although Stan may have discovered
my real problem.  I've become a Frankenstein.  But be that as it may, Islam
today is not very peaceful.  Protestants and Catholics quite trying to kill
each other after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, but there has never been
anything like that in Islam.  Shiites and Sunnis still kill each other - as
well as infidels.  


We have the right to defend ourselves against enemies who attack us. Who
cares if they think they are right?  


Your analysis of the Crusades is interesting.  How do you think the Muslims
got to all those places the Crusaders sought to evict them from?  They
conquered them.





-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Mike Geary
Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:22 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: Aren't you glad you no longer have a Hitler



>>This stuff is well known Mike.  Wahhabism originated in Saudi Arabia in 

>>the 18th Century.  Salafism came along later.  They were both 

>>Fundamentalist in nature.  Maududi wrote and was very influential in the 

>>days before and after Pakistan became an independent nation.  The Muslim 

>>Brothers, influenced by Wahhabism, were influential about the same time in

>>Egypt.  Sayyid Qutb was a Muslim Brother.<<


Well known, yes, but totally inaccurate as far as the spirit of Islamism is 

concerned.  Islam is not Wahabism or any other -ism but is Islam.  Islam is 

no more "captured" by its radical offshoots than Christianity is by Bob 

Jonesism or Pat Robertsonism or Jerry Falwellism or Dobsonism or any of the 

other dozens of Christian fascist sects.  There are fascist kooks galore 

within all religions, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, you name it.  All are

home to fascists who want to control the world.  The worst of course was the

Catholic Church -- but thank god, Protestantism came along -- along with 

hundreds of thousand killed by both sides -- but that's the price of God as 

they say.   Islam is a religion as deeply rooted in love and respect for the

human individual as any religion.  And the more I read into it, the more I 

think that perhaps it's more deeply rooted in peace and love than 

Christianity or Judaism.    I'm amazed that your wide reading hasn't brought

that home to you..  Must be what you're reading.


As to who are the good guys and who are the bad, I guess I must fall in line

with Andy.  They're all evil.


Today's holy homicide isn't unusual. It has been happening for centuries. 

When the First Crusade was launched against "infidels" in the Holy Land, 

mob-like armies gathered around Europe. Some Germans followed a goose 

thought to be enchanted by God. It led them into Jewish neighborhoods, where

they slaughtered the residents. Advancing Christian armies decapitated 

Muslims and catapulted the heads into beseiged cities. Finally, the 

crusaders captured Jerusalem and massacred the populace. A chronicler priest

wrote: "In the temple of Solomon, one rode in blood up to the knees and even

the bridles of horses, by the just and marvelous judgment of God"


After a Vatican council proclaimed that the host wafer miraculously turns 

into Jesus' body during the mass, rumors spread that Jews were stealing the 

wafers and driving nails through them to crucify Jesus again. Murderous mobs

wiped out more than 100 Jewish communities to avenge the tortured host.


Other massacres stemmed from rumors that Jews were sacrificing Christian 

children and using their blood in rituals.


When the Albigenses Christians in southern France wouldn't conform to 

official dogma, Pope Innocent III sent troops to exterminate them. After the

town of Beziers was captured, soldiers asked their papal adviser how to 

distinguish the faithful from the heretics among the townspeople. He 

commanded, "Kill them all. God will know his own." It was done.


The hunt for heretics led to establishment of the Office of the Inquisition.

Pope Innocent IV authorized torture. Shrieking victims were broken on 

fiendish machines and then paraded to the stake. Some were scientists like 

Giordano Bruno, who incurred the church's wrath by teaching that the planets

orbit the sun.


In the 1400s, the Inquisition turned its attention to witchcraft. Clerics 

declared that some women were having sex with Satan, transforming themselves

into animals, flying through the sky at night, and casting hexes on godly 

folk. The number of "witches" tortured and executed over three centuries is 

estimated from 100,000 to 2 million.


From the 1500s, members of India's Thuggee sect strangled people because 

they believed that the goddess Kali wanted her followers to eliminate excess

lives generated by Brahma the Creator. Thugs were garroting an estimated 

20,000 victims a year in the 1800s until British rulers stamped out the 

religion. At an 1840 trial, one Thug was accused of sacrificing 931 people.


The Reformation triggered two centuries of religious war that took millions 

of lives. Eight Huguenot-Catholic wars ravaged France. Protestant-Catholic 

slaughter sundered the Low Countries. England suffered killings when the 

Anglicans broke with Rome -- then more killings when the Puritans broke with

the Anglicans. The Thirty Years War brought the worst religious death toll 

of all time. Amid the Catholic-Protestant combat in Europe, both sides 

paused to kill Anabaptists for their crime of double baptism.


Islamic jihads (holy wars) killed multitudes over the course of 12 

centuries. First Muslims spread the faith west to Spain and east to India. 

Then breakaway sects branded other Muslims as infidels and warred against 

them. A jihad in the Nile Valley in the 1880s destroyed an Egyptian army and

wiped out defenders of Khartoum, led by British General "Chinese" Gordon. 

Wahhabi believers crushed other Muslims and created the fundamentalist 

kingdom of Saudi Arabia.


After the Baha'i faith began in Iran in 1844, the Shi'ite majority killed 

Baha'is by the thousands -- and this persecution has continued into the 



Muslim and Hindu taboos led to the Sepoy Mutiny in 1857. British governors 

in India gave their native troops new paper cartridges that had to be bitten

open. Animal grease on the cartridges infuriated Hindus, to whom cows are 

sacred, and Muslims, to whom pigs are satanic. Troops of both faiths 

rebelled and massacred Europeans.


In the late 1800s and again during World War I, Muslim Turks and Christian 

Armenians killed each other by the hundreds of thousands.


In a tragic irony, the great pacifist Mahatma Gandhi forced the British to 

leave India in 1947 -- which freed Hindus and Muslims to set upon each other

in a killing frenzy that cost perhaps a million lives. Outbreaks have 

continued ever since. For example, a pig walked through a Muslim holy ground

at Moradabad in 1980. Muslims blamed Hindus for it, and subsequent rioting 

killed 200 people.


The most religious nation today probably is Iran, "the government of God on 

Earth." It is the execution capital of the world, where thousands are put to

death. Shi'ite terrorists who killed American hostages on an airliner at 

Teheran Airport in 1984 announced that they did it "for the pleasure of 



Today, with Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India on the brink of war over the 

religious strife in Kashmir, the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace 

warns that both sides possess atomic weapons. That would be the ultimate 

madness: the world's first thermonuclear religious war.


Ronald Reagan hailed religion as a force for good, "the bedrock of moral 

order." That's a common view. But people need to realize there's another 

side to religion -- a deadly one that has produced tragedy, century after 

century. http://www.newwave.net/~haught/homicide.html




It's still the same old story.  A fight for love and glory a case of do or 

die.   Or would could just declare religion and nationalism and tribalism 

and classism evil and move on towards some kind of humanism.  What do you 



Mike Geary

Mosque Master





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