[opendtv] Re: How About Portable ATSC Receivers?
- From: Ron Economos <k6mpg@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: opendtv@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 03:23:33 -0800
Here's my favorite example of DTV apathy. I've
dumped the Transport Stream from KFSF-DT below.
KFSF-DT transmits from Sutro tower in San Francisco
with 150 kW ERP. It's a TeleFutura affiliate.
They have a great signal in Milpitas (tons better
than the analog channel) and their SD video quality
is really quite nice.
As you can see, the TVCT PID's are mismatched from
the PMT PID's. This will cause almost every ATSC
receiver to display a black screen and no audio.
It's been like this since January when they attempted
to meet the 0x30 and above PID requirement.
I think it may be possible that this DTV station
has zero viewers.
Ron
program = 3, video channel = 1, audio channel = 1
MGT tables defined = 6
MGT table type = 0x0000
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x04
MGT table bytes = 0x0000006d
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT table type = 0x0100
MGT table type pid = 0x1d00
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x0000000e
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT table type = 0x0101
MGT table type pid = 0x1d01
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x0000000e
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT table type = 0x0102
MGT table type pid = 0x1d02
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x0000000e
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT table type = 0x0103
MGT table type pid = 0x1d03
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x0000000e
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT table type = 0x0301
MGT table type pid = 0x1ffb
MGT table type version = 0x00
MGT table bytes = 0x000003e0
MGT table desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT desc bytes = 0x0000
MGT CRC = 0x1b88f79a, 74, 74
EIT0 events defined = 0
Program Number = 0 (0x0000), Program Map PID = 4094 (0x0ffe)
Program Number = 3 (0x0003), Program Map PID = 48 (0x0030)
program descriptor = 0x05, 0x04, 0x47, 0x41, 0x39, 0x34
program descriptor = 0x10, 0x06, 0xc0, 0xaf, 0xc8, 0xc0, 0x02, 0x00
program descriptor = 0xa3, 0x0d, 0x01, 0x73, 0x70, 0x61, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00,
0x05, 0x50, 0x72, 0x6f, 0x67, 0x31
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x02, 0x03, 0x22, 0x48, 0x5f
ES descriptor for stream type 0x02 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x02
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x39, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00,
0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x73, 0x70, 0x61, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x05, 0x04, 0x41, 0x43, 0x2d, 0x33
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x81, 0x06, 0x08, 0x31, 0x05, 0x00, 0x00,
0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x0a, 0x04, 0x73, 0x70, 0x61, 0x00
ES descriptor for stream type 0x81 = 0x06, 0x01, 0x01
TVCT number of channels = 1
TVCT short name = KFSF -
TVCT channel number = 66.1
TVCT modulation mode = 0x04
TVCT channel TSID = 0x0000
TVCT program number = 0x0001
TVCT service type = 0x0002
TVCT source id = 0x0001
TVCT desc bytes = 0x003d
SLD PCR pid = 0x0011
SLD stream type = 0x02
SLD elementary pid = 0x0011
SLD language code =
SLD stream type = 0x81
SLD elementary pid = 0x0014
SLD language code = spa
SLD stream type = 0x81
SLD elementary pid = 0x0015
SLD language code = spa
Extended Channel Name = (Identification and Address)
TVCT additional desc bytes = 0x0000
TVCT CRC = 0xda1c46d0, 100, 100
Sequence Header found
11 frames before first Sequence Header
Horizontal size = 704
Vertical size = 480
Aspect ratio = 4:3
Frame rate = 29.97
Sequence header bitrate = 9200000 bps
Progressive Sequence = 0
First Video PTS = 0x52962519
First Audio PTS = 0x52962ecd, -396
Audio Bitrate = 384000, Audio Sampling Rate = 48000
Audio Mode = 2/0, bsid = 8, bsmod = 0
EIT1 events defined = 0
packets for pid 0 <0x0000> = 157, first = 869, last = 186713
packets for pid 48 <0x0030> = 158, first = 273, last = 187309
packets for pid 49 <0x0031> = 80614, first = 2, last = 187390
packets for pid 52 <0x0034> = 4087, first = 14, last = 187373
packets for pid 53 <0x0035> = 2718, first = 26, last = 187385
packets for pid 7424 <0x1d00> = 502, first = 251, last = 186805
packets for pid 7425 <0x1d01> = 1, first = 24338, last = 24338
packets for pid 8187 <0x1ffb> = 195, first = 250, last = 186679
packets for pid 8191 <0x1fff> = 98960, first = 1, last = 187392
mpeg frames = 432, video fields = 864
Terry Harvey wrote:
>One consideration was left out of the flawed thought process below. As with
>Cable and Satellite STBs: why would anyone want one of those? The answer,
>of course, is to receive services one cannot receive with an integrated
>receiving device. Perhaps the real problem with DTV OTA is that there is
>very little which is compelling to watch which would justify the expenditure.
>
>Blaming the 8VSB transmission system to me is a cop out: there is little
>mention of the struggle many local broadcaster's are facing with having to
>manipulate the DTV stream BEFORE 8VSB modulation. I can tell you from
>experience that many broadcasters are having problems with the elements of
>their stream which prevent clear reception and seamless channel navigation.
>Matching MPEG-2 PSI tables with the PSIP TVCT, ensuring descriptors are
>correct, that the TSID is inserted correctly in the PAT and TVCT etc, etc
>will greatly affect the way the variety of DTV receivers will function.
>Unfortunately, many local broadcasters are not investing in proper stream
>management as well as proper 8VSB monitoring tools.
>
>The bottom line is that many broadcasters do not take DTV OTA seriously: in
>many cases, the transmitter was installed four years ago and the
>manufacturer has to be called to make routine adjustments. Bear in mind
>that any sophisticated digital modulation scheme depends upon a proper
>analog setup adjustment to ensure adequate audience reach.
>
>So before jumping to superficial conclusions, please consider the above.
>
>Terry Harvey
>
>At 04:11 PM 3/31/2005, BenWebber@xxxxxxx wrote:
>
>
>>John Shutt wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>If the United States were 90% wired (and/or DBS),
>>>and Australia were0% wired, that would still make
>>>a market of 10 million US TVHHs, and only 7
>>>million AU TVHHs.
>>>
>>>Where is your logic? Mine says every manufacturer
>>>that has tried to make an ATSC box has found out
>>>they are difficult and expensive to make, don't work
>>>very well, and there is too high of a return rate.
>>>Therefore there is no profit in them. Yes, it is
>>>market forces, but with, as the CEA claims, over
>>>16.5 million DTV sets sold in the United States
>>>since 1998, shouldn't that be a big enough market?
>>>Bigger than Australia, and they have plenty of STBs
>>>to choose from.
>>>
>>>
>>Demand and market size are two different things. It doesn't matter how
>>many dogs live in your town if they won't eat the dog food you're
>>selling.
>>
>>There is negligible demand for standalone ATSC tuners (i.e., STBs) at
>>present. Why? As a thought experiment, ask yourself what subset of U.S
>>TVHHs would actually want to buy a standalone ATSC STB. Basically, that
>>subset would include:
>>
>>a) a few thousand hobbyist and engineer types; and
>>
>>b) people who own a tuner-less DTV set AND for some reason don't want to
>>watch HD via cable or satellite.
>>
>>
>>Everybody else either:
>>
>>a) watches TV via cable or satellite;
>>
>>b) buys a DTV set with an integrated tuner;
>>
>>c) cannot afford a DTV set to begin with; or,
>>
>>d) is content with NTSC, and will only switch when forced by government
>>fiat or attracted by a significantly better value proposition (e.g.,
>>multiplex).
>>
>>
>>Notice, I haven't said one word about manufacturing costs, receiver
>>performance, or modulation scheme. Even if ATSC worked really well (I
>>have no idea if it does or not), demand for standalone ATSC tuners would
>>still be negligible.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>B.
>>
>>------------------------------------------
>>Ben Webber Managing Director
>>Psychofish, LLC ben@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>180 N Stetson Ave #810 312-819-4042(v)
>>Chicago, IL 60601 USA 312-819-4041(f)
>>------------------------------------------
>>
>>
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