[SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs. Signal Explorer
- From: agathon <hreidmarkailen@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 17:53:41 -0800
Chris,
heh heh, yer funny...
Good point. I think you know the answer:
Basic timing & such is assumed ok. What's sim'd is crosstalk effect where
you're pushing things, termination placement, excessive vias (1st one is the
worst, though), proper termination scheme vs. topology (such as the various
ddr2 options... not necessarily a simple choice if not a dimm), pwr
integrity (PI) for dimm stuff - esp. if there's pkg design. Concerning
the PI, there really are coupling and impedance profile issues at ddr2-667
on a dimm. 1+GHz serial links also need loss & ISI estimates for certain
cases.
On 1/10/07, Chris Cheng <Chris.Cheng@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> Sorry for being simple minded.
> In this day of source synchronous and serial buses.=20
> What exactly is needed to simulate on your PCB once the match length and =
> parallelism rules are constrained in your router and no DCR is shown.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Beal, Weston
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:31 PM
> To: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs. Signal Explorer
>
>
>
> This discussion comes up at least once a year and the answer is still
> the same. The best description I've seen was a couple of years ago. All
> EDA tools suck if you use them long enough. The deeper you get into it,
> the more bugs you find. Don't go too deep into it and you'll be happy in
> your ignorance :)X=3D20
>
> Now, the useful answer is that you need to look at features beyond
> functions. Every SI simulator simulates digital nets to some useful
> accuracy. Does it interface well to your PCB layout tool? Do you need it
> to? Does it output results in the way you want to use it? Does it
> support models of the effects that you are concerned with? Does it have
> the post-processing (waveform measurement) that you need? Is the cost
> within your budget? Can you, and do you want to, automate the tool for
> your work flow?
>
> So before you go looking too far for the right tool, you should figure
> out what is the job you need to do. If you just want to simulate a net
> once in a while to show pretty waveforms to your manager then get the
> cheapest tool you can find that makes pretty waveforms and you both will
> be happy for the immediate future. If you want a fully extensible,
> highly accurate, feature rich SI tool then get ready to spend some big
> money and time to get it set up in your environment. Thereafter you will
> find long-term joy. Most users want something in between. That's why
> there are so many SI tools on the market. Decide what is important to
> you and then the choice of tool will be fairly obvious.
>
> Regards,
> Weston
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of agathon
> Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:41 PM
> To: si-list
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs Signal Explorer
>
> I recently received a comment about just this from an acquaintance:
> ----
> "Short answer: anyone trying to make full use of Cadence pcb si tools
> for
> interconnect sim and who, nevertheless, recommends it could make good
> use of
> counseling of some kind... or the receivers of that info could make good
> use
> of a polygraph test on the one recommending. All this based on 1st
> hand
> experience over time."
>
> ----
> No info on Hyperlynx.
>
>
>
> On 1/9/07, cdomeny <craig.domeny@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > We are considering adding a base-model (<GHz) SI tool to our PCB
> design
> > flow and have looked at Mentor Hyperlynx EXT and Cadence Orcad Sig
> > Explorer. In research, it seems the Cadence tool does not actually
> > perform "physical extraction", but is able to do a post-layout
> analysis
> > somehow. Can anyone help?
> >
> > Hyperlynx "seems" more mature, but cost ~2X. However, we are concerned
> > also about post-layout, and if Hyperlynx actually extracts the layout,
> > it seems like a more robust method.
> >
> > Any help, insight, or guidance is appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks, - Craig
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
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