[SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs. Signal Explorer
- From: "Christopher McGrath" <christopher.mcgrath@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "si-list" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 15:16:12 -0800
For what it's worth...
In my experience, I have always found that the post-route sims were less
conservative than pre-route sims (in Hyperlynx) and real-life
measurements were even better looking than the post-route sims. After a
few generations of product development, I found that I became a better
judge of how tight or loose to set routing rules based on pre-route
sims. For example, if I had an edge case that was marginal in the
pre-route sims, I became pretty confident that it would likely have
margin in the post-route sims and that the post-route results/waveforms
were the final "gatekeeper" for fab. Applying experience to looser
routing rules translates to time/money saved in layout.
I also found that, for signals where vias had a significant effect on
the overall SI, this was very dependent on the implementation of the
routing and it was worth the time to go back after the route was done to
verify the actual signal quality.
Finally, I like using the post-route sims as the reference once a board
comes into the lab and needs to be checked out (or debugged). Having an
SI report with pre-route and post-route sims as well as the real
measurements serves as both a good learning tool for less senior
designers and, as is mentioned many times on the list, a good
justification for your tool budget when it comes time to renew licenses.
:)
Of course, part of it is just sheer paranoia. Once you fab it, you're
burning money and schedule, so we need to be as sure as possible that
we've done all we can to get a working product out the door.
-Chris
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>Behalf Of Chris Cheng
>Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:44 PM
>To: si-list
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs. Signal Explorer
>
>Sorry for being simple minded.
>In this day of source synchronous and serial buses.=3D20
>What exactly is needed to simulate on your PCB once the match length
and =3D
>parallelism rules are constrained in your router and no DCR is shown.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Beal, Weston
>Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 2:31 PM
>To: si-list
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs. Signal Explorer
>
>
>
>This discussion comes up at least once a year and the answer is still
>the same. The best description I've seen was a couple of years ago. All
>EDA tools suck if you use them long enough. The deeper you get into it,
>the more bugs you find. Don't go too deep into it and you'll be happy
in
>your ignorance :)X=3D3D20
>
>Now, the useful answer is that you need to look at features beyond
>functions. Every SI simulator simulates digital nets to some useful
>accuracy. Does it interface well to your PCB layout tool? Do you need
it
>to? Does it output results in the way you want to use it? Does it
>support models of the effects that you are concerned with? Does it have
>the post-processing (waveform measurement) that you need? Is the cost
>within your budget? Can you, and do you want to, automate the tool for
>your work flow?
>
>So before you go looking too far for the right tool, you should figure
>out what is the job you need to do. If you just want to simulate a net
>once in a while to show pretty waveforms to your manager then get the
>cheapest tool you can find that makes pretty waveforms and you both
will
>be happy for the immediate future. If you want a fully extensible,
>highly accurate, feature rich SI tool then get ready to spend some big
>money and time to get it set up in your environment. Thereafter you
will
>find long-term joy. Most users want something in between. That's why
>there are so many SI tools on the market. Decide what is important to
>you and then the choice of tool will be fairly obvious.
>
>Regards,
>Weston
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>On Behalf Of agathon
>Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:41 PM
>To: si-list
>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Hyperlynx vs Signal Explorer
>
>I recently received a comment about just this from an acquaintance:
> ----
>"Short answer: anyone trying to make full use of Cadence pcb si tools
>for
>interconnect sim and who, nevertheless, recommends it could make good
>use of
>counseling of some kind... or the receivers of that info could make
good
>use
>of a polygraph test on the one recommending. All this based on 1st
>hand
>experience over time."
>
>----
>No info on Hyperlynx.
>
>
>
>On 1/9/07, cdomeny <craig.domeny@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> We are considering adding a base-model (<GHz) SI tool to our PCB
>design
>> flow and have looked at Mentor Hyperlynx EXT and Cadence Orcad Sig
>> Explorer. In research, it seems the Cadence tool does not actually
>> perform "physical extraction", but is able to do a post-layout
>analysis
>> somehow. Can anyone help?
>>
>> Hyperlynx "seems" more mature, but cost ~2X. However, we are
concerned
>> also about post-layout, and if Hyperlynx actually extracts the
layout,
>> it seems like a more robust method.
>>
>> Any help, insight, or guidance is appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks, - Craig
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
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